macpro Posted April 19, 2003 Report Share Posted April 19, 2003 I'm using Retrospect Desktop 5.0.238 with Mac OS 9.1 on a PM 7500 G4@400 MHz / 576 Mb RAM. After backing up this PM, an iMac and an iBook, the PM has to shutdown. It used to do this perfectly, but since a couple of weeks this fails. On screen I see the Retrospect backup window which is empty. On top of that is the small "Quiting" window. The mouse stands in the upper left corner and the Apple menu is opened. It's just like someone has clicked on the mouse, thus opening the Apple menu and holding the Mac until the mouse is released. Needles to say that there's no one at the mouse to click. The mouse (Kensington Turbo Mouse) works without any problems. Any ideas what might be going on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urza311 Posted April 24, 2003 Report Share Posted April 24, 2003 MACPRO: I've got that same problem on two Macs here running 5.0.238, but haven't seen it on several others. I've never seen it running under OS X -- just OS 9.2.2. From other posts I've read here, it sounds like there may be an extension conflict between Retrospect and another piece of software. However, one of my two Macs afflicted with this is a very stripped down system, so there's only a few things it could be. Just curious -- do you have any of these pieces of software installed? These are the softwares common to both of my computers with this problem: * Thursby DAVE 4.0.2 * Symantec Norton Antivirus 7.0.2 * Aladdin Systems StuffIt Deluxe 7.0.1 * Roxio Toast 5.2.1 I just noticed my StuffIt Deluxe is out-of-date (7.0.3 is most current) and am updating that now, but don't have any idea if this is the culprit. Of course, the other thing to consider is that I've got five other systems running all these packages and Retrospect has no problems on those systems, so this may be barking up the wrong tree... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macpro Posted April 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 Als antwoord op: do you have any of these pieces of software installed? These are the softwares common to both of my computers with this problem: * Thursby DAVE 4.0.2 * Symantec Norton Antivirus 7.0.2 * Aladdin Systems StuffIt Deluxe 7.0.1 * Roxio Toast 5.2.1 Here's my list: Thursby DAVE 4.0.2 -> NO Symantec Norton Antivirus 7.0.2 -> YES Aladdin Systems StuffIt Deluxe 7.0.1 -> 5.1.2 Roxio Toast 5.2.1 -> Toast Titanium 5.1.4 I'm disabling Toast extensions for tomorrow's backup session. Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macpro Posted April 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2003 I've tried two backup sessions today. The first one, with Toast extensions disabled, opened the Apple menu "as usual" when trying to shut down. For the second one, I disabled the Norton extensions. This time the Apple menu remained closed. So it seemes that Norton is causing this. But... what seems strange is that I've used Norton before with Retrospect and it didn't behave like this. For next week, I'll be enabling the "Norton Antivirus Auto-Protect" extension. But I'll leave the Norton Scheduler extension disabled. To be continued... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macpro Posted May 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2003 Als antwoord op: The first one, with Toast extensions disabled, opened the Apple menu "as usual" when trying to shut down. For the second one, I disabled the Norton extensions. This time the Apple menu remained closed. Forget what I wrote about these extensions. I probably watched the countdown from Retrospect and aborted it, so my Mac wouldn't shutdown. Today I tried a couple of backups, each with different extension sets enabled. The final test I did was after resetting the Cuda switch and PRAM. I even got back to the Mac OS 9.1 basic extension set but added the Realtek Ethernet extension and XLR8 extension for my G4 upgrade. Even with this minimal set, Retrospect still opens the Apple menu at the end. It does this after the countdown has completed, like this: 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 remove count down window "Click" on Apple menu so it opens show "Quitting" window then Retrospects waits for the user to close the Apple menu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmyJ Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 What kind of device are you backing up to? For testing purposes, try booting with OS 9.x base extensions only. Launch Retrospect and create a file backup set saved on your local hard drive. Create a script to backup a small amount of data to this file backup set, scheduled to run a few minutes in the future. Wait and watch. Do you see the same behavior? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macpro Posted May 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 BINGO!! Als antwoord op: What kind of device are you backing up to? Jaz 1 Gb and Travan 10/20 Gb tape. Als antwoord op: For testing purposes, try booting with OS 9.x base extensions only. Launch Retrospect and create a file backup set saved on your local hard drive. Create a script to backup a small amount of data to this file backup set, scheduled to run a few minutes in the future. Wait and watch. Do you see the same behavior? I rebooted with base extensions PLUS the XLR8 extension. I need that one or my Mac won't boot at all. Then I made a File backup set on my startup drive. The script was set to backup 1 small folder with compression, without verify. (My normal settings.) Set to schedule after 2 minutes. Restarted Retrospect Desktop en moved the mouse so that when clicked the Apple menu would open. Then I waited... (2 minutes is a long wait when waiting ) The backup started and Retrospect quited. Without opening the Apple menu !!! So now it's your turn: what were you thinking when you wrote your suggestion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmyJ Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 Quote: So now it's your turn: what were you thinking when you wrote your suggestion? I was thinking that you had a third-party extension conflict. It appears that you do. See the following Apple article for information on extensions troubleshooting: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=30929 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macpro Posted May 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 Als antwoord op: I was thinking that you had a third-party extension conflict. It appears that you do. Hmmm. I was hoping you could point me right to the cause of this. But now I have quite a fast way of testing, so I'll start right away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macpro Posted May 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 I think I've found the conflict. This is how I've tested: Made a new extension set based upon Mac OS 9 Basic Settings. Also enabled the "XLR8 MACh Speed Extension" extension and "XLR8 MACh Speed Control" control panel. Also made a Run document from the simple test backup script as suggested by AmyC. Put an alias of this run document in the "Startup Items" folder. (I'm lazy, I know!) Reboot the Mac and automagically it starts to perform the Simple backup. After that, Retrospect quits, without opening the Apple Menu. (But also without shutting down, hmmm, interesting...) Then I did a new reboot without changing anything. Again the Simple backup script started and made a small backup. Then Retrospects tries to quit, but opens the Apple menu after the Countdown. Why? Because Retrospect has put an "Retro.Startup" extension into my Extensions folder. And I believe this is causing the problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmyJ Posted May 13, 2003 Report Share Posted May 13, 2003 Quote: Why? Because Retrospect has put an "Retro.Startup" extension into my Extensions folder. And I believe this is causing the problems. The Retro.Startup extension allows Retrospect to launch scripts at designated times, and has no effect on quit. To prevent this exension from loading, go to Special > Preferences > Notification and uncheck Automatically launch Retrospect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macpro Posted May 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2003 Als antwoord op: The Retro.Startup extension allows Retrospect to launch scripts at designated times, and has no effect on quit. Well, in my case, it seems that is does have effect on quit. If you feel my conclusions are false, please let me know why and what I might have done or interpreted wrong in my test. Als antwoord op: To prevent this exension from loading, go to Special > Preferences > Notification and uncheck Automatically launch Retrospect. Since I have automated my backup process, disabling this extension is not an option for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcswgn Posted May 15, 2003 Report Share Posted May 15, 2003 Quote: Well, in my case, it seems that is does have effect on quit. If you feel my conclusions are false, please let me know why and what I might have done or interpreted wrong in my test. Extensions modify the System and don't go away just because they are not currently being used. So, yes, it is certainly possible for Retro.Startup to conflict with something else and end up causing a problem on quit, even though it is not in use then. Remember, though, conflicts, by definition, don't involve just one extension. If there is indeed a conflict with this extension, you might be able to resolve it by getting Retro.Startup to load in some other order by changing its name. Add a character at the beginning that puts it alphabetically either early or late on the list of extensions. (Try both.) Usually extensions don't rely on a specific name, although I don't know whether Retro.Startup does, but you'll find out if your scripts don't launch. It's also possible that Retrospect might try to add another copy if it doesn't find it in the extensions folder under the correct name, which could also cause problems. Remember that this extension will probably not get replaced in an upgrade if it's had its name changed. Quote: To prevent this exension from loading, go to Special > Preferences > Notification and uncheck Automatically launch Retrospect. Since I have automated my backup process, disabling this extension is not an option for me. But it could be a useful diagnostic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmyJ Posted May 16, 2003 Report Share Posted May 16, 2003 Another customer on the forum who was also experiencing this issue noted that she was setting the computer to boot itself minutes before the scheduled backup. I was able to reproduce this issue on my computer and have logged it with our QA department. The problem did not occur when the computer was booted manually - although I have not yet confirmed whether or not it will occur if booted manually and the mouse is not touched before or during the automated script execution. Are you scheduling the computer to be booted automatically before the script runs? Steps to reproduce: Set Retrospect to Special > Prefs > Unattended > Shut Down Create an automated script to run 5 minutes in the future Control Panels > Energy Saver > Schedule Select ‘Scheduled shut down instead of scheduled sleep’ Check ‘Start up the computer’ Set computer to start up a few minutes in the future Shut down Watch computer start up and run script Do not touch the mouse at any time Script will finish and attempt to shut down computer – will hang at Quitting until mouse button is clicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macpro Posted May 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2003 Als antwoord op: Another customer on the forum who was also experiencing this issue noted that she was setting the computer to boot itself minutes before the scheduled backup. I was able to reproduce this issue on my computer and have logged it with our QA department. The problem did not occur when the computer was booted manually - although I have not yet confirmed whether or not it will occur if booted manually and the mouse is not touched before or during the automated script execution. If you read back through my previous posts, you can conclude the answer is yes. I restarted my Mac repeatedly by hand, with a "Run document" (which I made from the test backup script) in the "Startup Items Folder". So manualy rebooting the Mac resulted in a automatic start of a backup. Last weekend, I forced my Mac to not hanging by moving the mouse away from the Apple Menu. Als antwoord op: Are you scheduling the computer to be booted automatically before the script runs? Yes, I've completely automated the backup process. My PM 7500 starts at 8.00 AM for it's own backup, after that an Imac is backed up. Both to 4(!) Jaz Drives. Finaly a backup is made for my iBook which is sent to a Travan 10/20Gb tape unit. The PM 7500 is told to shutdown via Retrospect at the end of the backup. The iMac wakes and sleeps via the Energy Save control panel. The iBook wakes and sleeps via iBeezz. Als antwoord op: Steps to reproduce: Before performing this test, I used Extensions Manager to go back to basic OS 9.1 settings + the usual XLR8 stuff. I also enabled the Retro.Startup extension. Als antwoord op: Set Retrospect to Special > Prefs > Unattended > Shut Down Create an automated script to run 5 minutes in the future That's my default Unattended setting. Checkbox "Notify for failures and media" is also checked. Als antwoord op: Control Panels > Energy Saver > Schedule Select ?Scheduled shut down instead of scheduled sleep? Check ?Start up the computer? Set computer to start up a few minutes in the future Shut down Scheduled shut down is disabled by default on my Mac. I checked it for this test. Set the rest as requested. Als antwoord op: Watch computer start up and run script Do not touch the mouse at any time Computer started normally via schedule. Mouse remained in the upper left corner all time. Startup finished normally and before Retrospect was scheduled to run. Als antwoord op: Script will finish and attempt to shut down computer ? will hang at Quitting until mouse button is clicked Retrospect splash screen shows Scheduled backup runs Preparing to shut down pop-up shows and counts down Quitting pop-up shows Apple Menu opens Waiting until ... St. Juttemis (that's what we sometimes call waiting until forever in The Netherlands ) Clicking the mouse is indeed all I need to do to close the Apple Menu. Some extra info: After this test, I manually started the Mac. Becasue I have the Run Document on my desktop, I was able to select it via keyboard and let it run. The mouse was never touched! It made a backup and then attempted to shut down the Mac. Which failed because of the opened Apple Menu. Clicking the mouse made the Apple Menu close, letting the Mac shutdown. Again, I performed a manual restart. Then I moved the mouse towards the "File" menu. Manually selected the Run Document again and made it run. All went the same, except this time it opened the "File" menu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macpro Posted May 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2003 Als antwoord op: It's also possible that Retrospect might try to add another copy if it doesn't find it in the extensions folder under the correct name, which could also cause problems. This is correct. I restarted my Mac whith the Retro.Startup extension disabled. At the next reboot (after manually starting Retrospect offcourse) I found I had a new one sitting in my Extensions Folder. With the disabled one sitting in the Extensions (disabled) Folder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urza311 Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 Independently, I came to the conclusion that leaving the mouse over a "menuable" item would cause the pause at shutdown and verified this myself in testing. Sure, it may be a conflict between the OS and a component of Retrospect or Norton Antivirus or something, but this is now a REPRODUCABLE bug. I know Apple isn't developing OS 9 further, but as long as Retrospect is actively being sold for the OS 9 platform (as 5.0.x still is), I would hope Dantz would pay attention to this issue and work to resolve it, or at least to alert the general public to watch their mouse placement to avoid the issue. It's only after living through months of erratic behavior with Retrospect that I finally figured out how to get by this problem. I'd prefer, if nothing else, that other users would benefit from our efforts (in the form of a knowledgebase article) -- or that Dantz would offer a fix for it. Anyone from Dantz care to comment on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayoff Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 We have also reproduced this issue and have reported it to our engineers. We are investigating possible solutions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macpro Posted May 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 Als antwoord op: We have also reproduced this issue and have reported it to our engineers. We are investigating possible solutions Thanks for the info. I know you won't be able right now to tell me when a fix will be available. But what is the best way for me to get up to date info about your progress? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayoff Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 We always try to report new bug fixes in the forum, specifically in the threads that reported the issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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