lstone19 Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Among my backup, I have a nightly job to Duplicate my VMware Fusion virtual machine files. I do a duplicate rather than a backup due to the size (if I run the Fusion virtual machine, then the entire 7GB file needs to be backed-up or copied; by duplicating, it should only need to be copied if it changed without getting a huge saveset). Earlier this week, VMware released version 1.1 of Fusion. Since then, three of the files in the virtual machine package file are getting copied every run even though they have not changed. All three have the same "extended attributes": $ ls -l@ -rw-------@ 1 larry larry 6431047680 Nov 12 23:28 Windows XP Home Edition.vmdk com.apple.metadata:com_apple_backup_excludeItem 61 -rw-------@ 1 larry larry 536870912 Oct 31 19:09 Windows XP Home Edition.vmem com.apple.metadata:com_apple_backup_excludeItem 61 -rw-------@ 1 larry larry 18775475 Nov 12 23:28 Windows XP Home Edition.vmss com.apple.metadata:com_apple_backup_excludeItem 61 Retrospect Server: PPC/Leopard Retrospect Client: Intel/Leopard Retrospect Version: 6.1.138 Retrospect Client: 6.1.130 As a test, I set up a script to further Duplicate from the PPC server to a PPC client running Tiger and the same behavior is seen. Any thoughts as to why this is happening? For now, I have the duplicate cut back to once a week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayoff Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 The act of running fusion or launching fusion could be enough to make the files appear changed, forcing a backup. Retrospect looks at the: name, size, creation date and time, modify date and time, kind, label and meta data to identify if a file has changed. If any of these criteria changes, the file will get backed up again. Are you using verification at the time of the duplicate? Any errors? What is the destination volume? Internal disk? External disk? Are permissions being ignored on the disk? What is the disk file system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstone19 Posted November 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Fusion is not being run between successive backups. I can run it and as soon as it finishes, run it again and have it backup those three files again. Verification is done and there are not errors. Destination volume is an external Firewire disk (LaCie brand although I doubt that should matter). Permissions are not ignored. Filesystem is HFS+. Prior to the update to Fusion 1.1, these files were only backed up if Fusion had actually been run. I don't know if that metadata was on the 1.0 version of the files but since those are the three that get backed up every time, I assume that metadata is involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CallMeDave Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Quote: All three have the same "extended attributes": When you compare the file information of these files on the Source to the information of the files on the Destination, what do you see? Fusion has a bunch of daemons that stay alive even when the program is not running; perhaps one of them is in play? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstone19 Posted November 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 The file information (as shown by 'ls -l@' in Terminal) is the same. And the file modification date is prior to the previous backup. From what I can see, none of the things that Robin mentioned as triggering a backup has changed. I did a test of another Duplicate from the PPC Retrospect Server to a PPC Client and Retrospect wants to back those file up every time as well. Fusion daemons can't be a factor there as Fusion is quite obviously (being an Intel only program) not running on the Retrospect server (but that client is Tiger, not Leopard so that could be a factor - something I'll have to test this evening and see what the file listing looks like). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayoff Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Quote: Fusion daemons can't be a factor there as Fusion is quite Correct me if I am wrong, don't most daemons run in the background even when the UI is closed? Does the activity monitor show any items for VMWare running? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayoff Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Do you have the ability to do a file comparison (or diff) outside of Retrospect to compare the files to see what is different from the finder point of view? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstone19 Posted November 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Quote: Quote: Fusion daemons can't be a factor there as Fusion is quite Correct me if I am wrong, don't most daemons run in the background even when the UI is closed? Does the activity monitor show any items for VMWare running? Yes. But in my extended test configuration, there are three machines involved: A: MacBook Pro running Leopard B: iMac G4 running Leopard C: Mac G4 running Tiger Fusion only runs on A (the only Intel machine involved). I started talking about files being backed up (via Duplicate) from A to B. Then as a test, I set up another Duplicate from B to C. Retrospect copies from B to C every time even if no backup from A to B has been done between B to C backups. Since Fusion is not on B, there are no Fusion daemons to touch the files on B (which is what I was talking about when I said "Fusion daemons can't be a factor there..."). It might be that C is running Tiger is a factor in the B to C duplicates. I'll do some more testing tonight including Duplicating back to another directory on A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstone19 Posted November 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Quote: Do you have the ability to do a file comparison (or diff) outside of Retrospect to compare the files to see what is different from the finder point of view? I AFP mounted the MacBookPro (source) disk on the iMac (Retrospect server) and then did a "diff" on the two smaller of the three files that are being continually backed up by Retrsospect and diff reports no differences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CallMeDave Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Quote: The file information (as shown by 'ls -l@' in Terminal) is the same I'm no unix tool expert (Russ? Russ?) but that command doesn't show time to the second, and there may be other limitations to those flags, too. What if you do ls-laT ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhwalker Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 the "-eo" options would be useful too. Is it possible that machines A and B have ACLs enabled on their volume and C does not? That would cause metadata miscompare. What is the state of the Retrospect 6.1.138 preference to not back up ACLs? Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstone19 Posted November 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Quote: Quote: The file information (as shown by 'ls -l@' in Terminal) is the same I'm no unix tool expert (Russ? Russ?) but that command doesn't show time to the second, and there may be other limitations to those flags, too. What if you do ls-laT ? I am a Unix expert (having done Unix System Administration). On the ls command, -a merely adds hidden files (those starting with a . (dot)) to the list. It does nothing to the display of those already shown by ls without a -a. Adding -T gives a complete time (with year and seconds) rather than the short time. But this is only a display change and when I check with -T, they are identical. There are 10 files contained inside the package. Retrospect only wants to re-backup three of them. The only difference I can see between the files Retrospect thinks need to be backed up and those that it doesn't is the "extended attributes" on the file: com.apple.metadata:com_apple_backup_excludeItem 61 Checking my entire Documents folder (using the Unix ls piped to grep), I can find this attribute only on these three files plus their parent directory (package). This attribute clearly has to be the cause so I think the real question is why does the presence of this attribute cause Retrospect to want to backup the files every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstone19 Posted November 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Quote: the "-eo" options would be useful too. Is it possible that machines A and B have ACLs enabled on their volume and C does not? That would cause metadata miscompare. What is the state of the Retrospect 6.1.138 preference to not back up ACLs? Russ $ ls -eo total 13646368 -rw------- 1 larry 8684 Nov 12 23:28 Windows XP Home Edition.nvram -rw-------@ 1 larry 6431047680 Nov 12 23:28 Windows XP Home Edition.vmdk -rw-------@ 1 larry 536870912 Oct 31 19:09 Windows XP Home Edition.vmem -rw------- 1 larry 0 Oct 24 21:14 Windows XP Home Edition.vmsd -rw-------@ 1 larry 18775475 Nov 12 23:28 Windows XP Home Edition.vmss -rwxr-xr-x 1 larry 1971 Nov 12 23:28 Windows XP Home Edition.vmx -rw-r--r-- 1 larry 80630 Nov 12 23:11 vmware-0.log -rw-r--r-- 1 larry 46709 Nov 3 19:26 vmware-1.log -rw-r--r-- 1 larry 48998 Nov 2 22:02 vmware-2.log -rw-r--r-- 1 larry 46315 Nov 12 23:28 vmware.log I've tried it both ways with the Retrospect ACL preference as that was my first thought. It made no difference. But as the "ls -e" is showing, there are no ACLs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayoff Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Oh, I just realized what is probably going on. Click on "options" for the duplicate. Click More choices. Click Matching. Uncheck "use attribute modification date when matching". Maybe this will help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstone19 Posted November 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 I'll try that tonight and see what happens. It will be a few hours until I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CallMeDave Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Quote: The only difference I can see between the files Retrospect thinks need to be backed up and those that it doesn't is the "extended attributes" on the file Ah, ok, then. I guess I was just sort of thrown off by your previous answer of: "The file information ... is the same" You seemed so certain... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstone19 Posted November 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Quote: Oh, I just realized what is probably going on. Click on "options" for the duplicate. Click More choices. Click Matching. Uncheck "use attribute modification date when matching". Maybe this will help. That did it. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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