Retrospect 6.5 and Duplicate Replace - why copying existing files?

[BJB]

Greetings,

 

I use Retrospect 6.5 as part of a kit to backup a Fireball music server.

I have read the FAQ's and documents and am pretty familiar with the Retrospect software and other backup software.

 

What has me confused is this. I used the "duplicate" "replace entire volume" option for the second time to backup the unit. Now based on the documentation, I expected it to ONLY have to copy the NEW files. In other words, files that were not there the last time the duplicate was run. If files were exactly the same, it should have left them alone.

But retrospect re-copied everything. The new files (as expected) but also each and every old file that was absolutely there for the last duplicate. Now at the end of the day, I had a good backup, but it took forever vs. just taking a short time to copy the new files...

 

Now I talked to Dantz support.....and their suggestion was to use the "replace corresponding files" option. Now again, after reading the documentation, I understand the difference between the two options. And based on what I read, if the files are the SAME (name, path, date, etc) either option should leave them alone.

 

Is there a setting somewhere that I am missing here? Was phone support totally offbase???

 

I am running a Dell XPS 3ghz PC with 1 gig memory running XP Pro backing up an escient fireball E-120 over a wired network to an external Maxtor drive connected to the PC via Firewire. Is there a place in your user setup to allow you to input your equipment etc? I did not see it, just personal stuff.

 

I utilized retrospect express 6.5 duplicate>replace entire volume>

 

I went to source> advanced and set the UNC path for the source content directory.

Selected all files.

 

Started the backup.

 

I saw it scan the drives, and then it started copying. And it obviously copied the entire drive again as the new files should have only been a handful. This takes hours....

 

Is there a setting in the backup software that changes this behaviour?

I have the external drive letter hardcoded so that path should not change. I am using the UNC path for the source so that does not change....I guess somehow the fireball might have flipped a bit or something on the files but I doubt it.

 

If there are no ideas I guess I will just try it again with the "replace entire volume" option and see what happens. It is just that support absolutely understood my question, but all the documentation I have read disputes their recommendation.

 

BJB

[BJB]

Did I post this in the right forum area??

Any help would be most appreciated.

 

BJB

[waltr]

hi bjb,

 

what is the filesystem on the Maxtor drive? also, could you compare some of the duplicated files on it with the corresponding files on your computer? check creation/modification dates and the like.

 

if the Maxtor is FAT32, you might do better with NTFS, if that's possible.

[BJB]

waltr,

 

I am running NTFS on both my desktop machine source drive (SATA drive) and also on the external Maxtor.

 

I checked several files on both the source and destination drive. The creation, modified, AND last accessed dates and times were identical.

 

Someone over on the Apple forum has a similar issue...

 

Really kind of strange. I also had the situation arise that after about 10gigs into the backup, throughput slowed from 25MB/min to 2MB/min. Had to stop, reboot, and re-select files to get the speed back up to normal. After around 10gig, the same thing happened again. Sounds like a memory leak or something.

 

BJB

[waltr]

hi bjb,

 

what happens if you connect the drive directly to the PC instead of going over the network?

[BJB]

waltr,

 

Unfortunately, I cannot connect my source drive directly to the PC. It is an Escient music server which can only talk to the PC via a network...

 

BJB

[waltr]

hi bjb,

 

 

 

i'm not familiar with the music server you have, but it sounds like the files are somehow stored differently on it than a normal PC. could you test this with another PC (maybe the one connected to the Maxtor drive?) as a control test?

[BJB]

waltr,

 

The music server essentially runs a linux webserver. To windows, it just looks like a network drive with all of the normal file properties so not sure if the OS matters in this case?

 

I do backups on my regular PC but those do not use the duplicate function. I will have to very carefully setup a test of the duplicate function so as not to blow away data I want.

 

BJB

[waltr]

hi bjb,

 

if it's linux, then it's not NTFS. this makes a _lot_ of difference as another filesystem may change an attribute on the files (such as time/date). each has their own way of doing things and when one changes an attribute Retrospect will see the difference.

[BJB]

waltr,

 

I understand this....

 

This is why I checked the dates/times. As I noted, when I look at the attributes from within windows over the network, the dates/times have NOT changed. As I said, some have dates from 2005. In fact, even the last accessed date was not changed. So what is Retrospect looking at???

 

When I am looking at those file from windows, I am seeing the same dates, times, attributes that retrospect is. And windows is.... So if they are all the same, what does Retrospect think changed? Is there a list somewhere of what it is actually checking?

Does it try to set an archive bit or something after it backs something up that it cannot do over the network and on a webserver/network drive?

 

BJB

[waltr]

hi bjb,

 

6.5 doesn't use the archive bit at all. i have a feeling that something is different with the way that your Linux filesystem stores the files. you could try doing a Backup instead of a Duplicate. that would lock up the files in a Retrospect format so that the OS would not change anything. when you store the files in a raw format you've got to accept that there are differences between filesystems.

 

you may have a good reason for wanting a Duplicate, but from what you've told me i don't see any way around the problem you are seeing. i don't know what filesystem you are using on the Linux comeputer, and i'm not really an expert on how these filesystems compare to NTFS. i'm sure there are differences. it's possible that there is a minutely different filesize (Windows definetly rounds some figures in the GUI, not sure about Linux) or something like that which looks 'exactly the same' when you look at the files in Windows.

[BJB]

waltr,

Two reasons I was using duplicate. The Dantz/Maxtor/Escient directions EXPLICITLY state to make the backup this way.

The second, and related to the first...is that if you need to do a restore, you do not "restore" the entire directory or drive. You need to move the files to an "import" directory which it will then process and re-install. It is just more convenient to have in the native format.

 

None of the involved players can figure out why it is doing this so I will just do a search on the dates of files added since the last backup and copy (or duplicate-replace corresponding) only those files.

 

You would think if they used a drive...and chose software...to backup a specific device...it would be fairly clear on who this works. I am not trying to backup a home-brewed linux box here.

 

Anyway, thanks for your help. There is nothing I can figure out based on the available displayed information. Perhaps some other Escient owner on here will see this and provide some insight.

 

BJB

[waltr]

hi bjb,

 

you left a lot out of your posts regarding this problem. originally you told me that everything was NTFS all around. eventually we found out differently, but it took time. now i find out you are using express and have the Maxtor instructions.

 

i never understand why someone asking for help leaves important details out of a description of their problem. this isn't disrespect towards you, but i'd just like you to realize how difficult it makes troubleshooting on a forum board. if you need help in the future please understand that the people trying to help you would like nothing more than any (and all) details you can give. i can't help but wonder what you told EMC Technical Support.

 

personally, i've read the Maxtor line on Duplicates and i think it's a load of crap. you'll be better off doing backups--plus it will avoid the problem you are having. i think you'll find a lot of the people on the forum agree with that, or will do both Backup and Duplicate if they have the space.

[BJB]

Waltr,

 

First, I am very sensitive to trying to provide complete info as I also try to help people out in several other forums in areas that I have expertise in. I try to keep in mind that they usually are not an expert in the area they are posting about or else they would not be posting. It is not unusual to have to ask the right question to get all the answers needed to resolve the problem. In many cases, they do not know FAT32 from NTFS from DOS. However I enjoy helping out in areas that I have expertise in and do not get quite so frustrated…

 

 

FWIW I actually tried to leave all the details I could in the first post. What I originally said in my first post was “I am running a Dell XPS 3ghz PC with 1 gig memory running XP Pro backing up an escient fireball E-120 over a wired network to an external Maxtor drive connected to the PC via Firewire”. This is a lot more detail that I sometimes have to deal with when helping someone out. No I did not state it ran on linux immediately as not being a backup guru, I did not know that was critical if windows sees it as a network drive. I definitely stand educated and corrected on that point. I really was not trying to keep that a secret. I was not aware that there is a 6.5 EXPRESS version and a 6.5 version.

 

 

I did not “originally say everything was NTFS all around”. As noted above, I said I backup up from an Escient fireball to a Maxtor external drive. You later asked me to check out some file dates on my desktop drive and my Maxtor drive which I did as a test and asked what files system the external drive was running. A subsequent post says my desktop and destination drives are NTFS. All true…I backup both my escient (linux) drive noted on post one and also my main PC NTFS drive to an external NTFS drive. And I was backing both up and running tests as you were asking, checking file dates and sizes. In re-reading my post I could see that perhaps that was not clear. Yes, I did find the Maxtor/Dantz/Escient directions online because I did A LOT of research reading FAQ's etc. I always do this before I would post a question about an issue.

 

Your comment about wondering what I told EMC tech support? Actually what took 3 or 4 posts here took about 5 minutes to verbally describe my setup, however their solution did not make sense. My goal is to get this resolved and not purposely waste my time or anyone else’s. Trust me, they got the right facts.

 

Thanks for your help anyway. Perhaps someone else that understands backing up Linux drives over a network could help out. If I resolve the issue I will be sure to post the resolution to help others that may have this issue.

 

 

BJB

[dac]

Hi BJB and waltr,

I have the same problem when using the option to duplicate (replace corresponding files). Sometimes all goes well and it just takes a few minutes to duplicate new files and delete files now deleted on my source drive but sometimes my maxtor deletes everything and starts from scratch ... which takes all night. I have not been able to find a rhyme or reason to this as I don't seem to be doing anything different on each occasion.

I'm using XP, no network.

dac