sjeffers Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 Just got into new position were backups weren't working. Retrospect 4.3 was the current version. Tape Library is an ADIC VLS AIT 2 tape drive with two Sony SDX-300c drives in it. Mac OS X 10.4.7 Server, Single 2GHz Processor, 2 GB RAM Retrospect Software 6.1.126 Driver Update Version 6.1.7.101 SCSI Card LSI Logic LSI122320 Symptons: Upon starting of Retrospect and looking at Devices, the two Sony AIT Drives do not show, if I go to rescan then they show up. A:1. A:2. amd A:3 respectively. When I try to do anything with regard to a tape, it hangs. Rather it be erasing a tape, scanning a tape. Trying to rebuild a tape, it only will show "(Unknown)" status, and usually tends to hang where I have to stop the command and unload all tapes to get them back into the library. Also old tapes that are supposed to have content on them show up as unrecognixed media, that will not work, the old archives need to be accessible as well. Someone please help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhwalker Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 Very confusing set of facts here. Initially you say that you've got Retrospect 4.3 (which is MacOS 8/9): Quote: Just got into new position were backups weren't working. Retrospect 4.3 was the current version. But then you indicate you've got Retrospect 6.1: Quote: Retrospect Software 6.1.126 Driver Update Version 6.1.7.101 Also, some info is left out: Quote: Mac OS X 10.4.7 Server, Single 2GHz Processor, 2 GB RAM Is this an Xserve? Xserve G5? Something else? Quote: SCSI Card LSI Logic LSI122320 Ah, the Apple BTO Dual Channel SCSI card (rebranded LSI Logic 22320). Quote: Tape Library is an ADIC VLS AIT 2 tape drive with two Sony SDX-300c drives in it. Are these devices attached to the LSI Logic 22320? If so, are they on the same SCSI channel? If not, how are they allocated to the SCSI channels? Could you please clarify the facts for those of us who are confused? Simply FYI, the above notwithstanding, we received our Xserve G5 2.0 GHz single processor a little over a year ago with the Apple BTO Dual Channel SCSI card (rebranded LSI Logic 22320). It never worked with Retrospect, and the failure mode was EXACTLY what you are describing. Only solution was to replace it with an ATTO UL4D, which has worked perfectly. The Apple Dual Channel SCSI card (LSI Logic 22320) sits on the shelf, gathering dust. I suggest you get an ATTO UL4D as well. Regards, Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjeffers Posted September 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 Sorry for the confusion, it has been a very long day. Okay, so when I got in, they were using Retrospect 4.3 on OS 9. It was having problems recognizing the tapes, they all were "???" in the device viewer. But that's another issue. I got them to upgrade to 6.1 on their new G5 XServe G5 I would likely presume that the card was the one you are referring to. The setup is like this. The Dual Channel Card holds the SCSI connections for a disk array drive on one channel, and the ADIC Tape Library on the other. (the drives are part of the ADIC Library) the only connection is from the library to one of the channels of the card. If anymore clarification is needed, please let me know. BTW, will the older tapes be able to be viewed if the new card is purchased, don't they run like $600? and you said you had the same problems, which problem was that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhwalker Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 Thanks for the clarification. Quote: The Dual Channel Card holds the SCSI connections for a disk array drive on one channel, and the ADIC Tape Library on the other. (the drives are part of the ADIC Library) the only connection is from the library to one of the channels of the card. Ok, that's the correct setup. We also saw a different issue (Retrospect occasionally hangs on device scan if SoftRAID RAID 1 mirror of OS boot volume is on same SCSI channel) than the one you are reporting, and would only be seen if there are OS disks on the same SCSI channel as the Retrospect tape devices. Quote: BTW, will the older tapes be able to be viewed if the new card is purchased depends on whether there is data on them. Are they still readable on OS 9 using this tape hardware? If so, the answer will be yes (but see below regarding HVD/LVD, etc., that might be your problem). Quote: don't they (ATTO UL4D) run like $600? They are expensive, but they work and my time (and our data) is worth more than that. I checked moments ago and the UL4D is $426.06 (USD) on MacConnection, which is where we bought ours a little over a year ago. Quote: and you said you had the same problems, which problem was that? The exact same problem I believe that you posted about (Retrospect doesn't see tape drives until manual scan): Quote: Upon starting of Retrospect and looking at Devices, the two Sony AIT Drives do not show, if I go to rescan then they show up. A:1. A:2. amd A:3 respectively. It's interesting that we have an Exabyte VXA-2 1x10 1u PacketLoader (SCSI) and saw the exact same symptom with the LSI 22320 as you are seeing with the ADIC library and Sony drives. Disappeared immediately when we pulled that card for the ATTO UL4D. Your other problem sounds related, and I just think that the LSI 22320 can't talk to the tape/autoloader devices reliably. However, when making this later post, I went out to investigate a bit more on your hardware, and I see that the ADIC VLS AIT (2 drive) is "SCSI-2, Fast/Wide SE or HVD". You know, that might be the issue, and the ATTO UL4D might not help. The LSI 22320 is LVD SCSI, as is the ATTO UL4D. The UL4D can also support, on a per-channel basis by backward compatibility, Fast/Wide SE but not HVD. The LSI 22320 info indicates that it is LVD but can do Fast/Wide SE, no HVD. And I assume that you've got all the cable/terminator stuff done right - it's harder to do SE reliably than LVD. You might check on this issue. If you need HVD, you are out of luck. The ATTO UL4D is what everybody recommends/uses with the Xserve G5 (EMC/Insignia, Tolis Group, etc.). Wish I had known that before getting the BTO Apple SCSI card (LSI 22320 - which was a discontinued product from LSI at the time it was sold by the Apple Store for the Xserve G5 - bet Apple got a "good deal"). There is a chance that you might need a LVD AIT solution to read the old tapes. SCSI has moved on... Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjeffers Posted September 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 So basically I'm screwed? The suggested ATTO doesn't support the older SCSI technology that the ADIC Tape Library uses??? If I go back to the OS 9 machine and 4.3, maybe I could get some help getting that back online and not recieving the "???" instead of tape names. I'm going to be suggesting a new backup process, which should and would obviously include a new hardware tape library, perhaps firewire instead. Any suggestions, don't have a price range, but somethign that will make sense. Don't have the numbers on size of backups and process yet though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhwalker Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 Quote: The suggested ATTO doesn't support the older SCSI technology that the ADIC Tape Library uses??? Perhaps, I just don't know. I was only looking at an online product page for the ADIC. You know best what SCSI technology the ADIC is set up for - I don't have that device. If it's HVD, no go for either ATTO or LSI Logic. If it's SE SCSI-2, the ATTO will support it as long as there are only SCSI-2 devices on that channel. Simply FYI, we've got an old SCSI-1 DAT drive that we keep around in case we have to read some old Retrospect tapes made all the way back to Retrospect 2.0i, circa 1992 or so, from our now-retired ASIP server. Works fine on our ATTO UL4D, but there can't be anything but SCSI-1 on that channel when we use it. Both ATTO UL4D and LSI 22320 support backward compatibility SCSI if on its own channel, but neither support HVD (which was a transient, orphan technology). Be very, very careful if you've got HVD - if you mix HVD on the same channel as LVD, the LVD things blow up. Permanent damage. If the ADIC is SCSI-2 SE, you might get it to work with quality short cables, good terminators, no ground loop with the Xserve (i.e., on the same UPS), and incense and daily sacrifices. As for suggestions, it seems that you will have to have a SCSI card in the Xserve anyway because of the disk. Some people had difficulty with FireWire early on with Retrospect and Mac OS X - may have been other devices like cameras, etc., on the bus, I don't know - so I took what seemed the "safe" route and went SCSI LVD backup rather than FireWire. Other people are happy with FireWire and Retrospect on the Exabyte VXA-2 1x10 1u PacketLoader (the firewire version of what I've got). It's priced rather nicely for small businesses, you might check it out. We've been happy with our SCSI version. Exabyte has a newer model (same autoloader, VXA-320 drive) that can do VXA-2 capacity or, with a firmware upgrade/license, VXA-3 (double VXA-2) on the same tapes (X23 has rated 80/160 uncompressed/compressed GB for VXA-2, 160/320 GB VXA-3). The higher capacity pays for itself in a couple of autoloader refills. But the VXA-320 & autoloader don't come with FireWire, only LVD SCSI. Just a suggestion. Prices are quite low at MacConnection/PC Connection. Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjeffers Posted September 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 The VLS Unit The VLS AIT™ is a fully automated, high performance, high capacity, mass storage system designed with a removable data cassette magazine. The door can be locked to deactivate the unit's keypad, assuring only authorized removal of the magazine and media. In addition, to protect the unit, data and media, the VLS will not operate unless the door is closed. The VLS AIT includes either one or two 3.5” form factor Sony® AIT tape drives. The library and drive(s) operate as separate SCSI devices on a single SCSI bus. When the library is equipped with AIT-1 drives, the library is a differential SCSI-2 device and the drives are differential Fast/Wide SCSI-2 devices. When equipped with AIT-2 drives, the library and drives can be configured as high voltage differential (HVD) Wide Ultra SCSI devices, or as low voltage differential (LVD) Wide Ultra SCSI devices. When operating with two AIT-2 tape drives and assuming an average data compression ratio of 2:1, the VLS AIT can store up to 1.1 Terabytes of information on 11 AIT-2 data cassettes (SDX2-50C). It can reach a sustained maximum data transfer rate of over 720 MB per minute (also assuming 2:1 compression). The AIT-1 or AIT-2 tape drives do not require periodic head cleaning as often as many conventional tape drives. The drive constantly monitors head output to check for possible contamination. If present, the drive will invoke a built-in Active Head Cleaner. Under extreme operating conditions, a cleaning cartridge may be required and the drive indicates this by displaying a Cleaning Request message on its front panel Status LED. The Sony SDX1-25C, SDX1-35C, SDX2-36C, and SDX2-50C data cassettes support the Advanced Intelligent Tape (AIT) format, Adaptive Lossless Data Compression (ALDC), Memory In Cassette (MIC™) technology capabilities and use Sony’s AME™ media, which incorporates dual cobalt magnetic layers, the absence of binder material tp prevent tape head contamination and a super-durable “diamond-like carbon” protective coating for extreme durability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhwalker Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 Quote: When equipped with AIT-2 drives, the library and drives can be configured as high voltage differential (HVD) Wide Ultra SCSI devices, or as low voltage differential (LVD) Wide Ultra SCSI devices. Well, then, it looks like you are all set with your present tape/library hardware if it's configured as LVD Wide Ultra SCSI. In that case, the ATTO UL4D will work fine, assuming you've got good cables and terminators. Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjeffers Posted September 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 configured I don't know how to configure it either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjeffers Posted September 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 I just spoke with the folks at ATTO, they said that the device shoudl work as a LVD device, becasue now since its running on the LSI card, and its a 320 card, that is only a LVD card? I'm a little up to my neck with this stuff. Hopefully buyign this card will fix things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhwalker Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 The LSI card and ATTO cards are similar in what they support on the SCSI side. They are backward compatible on everything except HVD. (single-ended (SE) SCSI, LVD, Fast/Wide, etc.). But if you put anything other than LVD on the channel, it works as the lowest common denominator (doesn't switch to LVD for LVD devices, etc.). It's just that the LSI card seems to have some issues (whether firmware, driver, who knows) with OS 10.4.x and Retrospect. Everybody uses the ATTO UL4D in Xserve G5. I would expect that the UL5D might be the standard for the new Intel boxes. Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjeffers Posted September 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 So are you saying that if the disk array is lower than LVD (I don't know if there is such a thing supported on the ATTO), then the card wouldn't recognize the LVD? Just for futher clarification, I'm going with the ATTO, but it was just a matter of if it would work since I didn't know how the tape drive configures itself to be LVD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhwalker Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 Quote: So are you saying that if the disk array is lower than LVD (I don't know if there is such a thing supported on the ATTO), then the card wouldn't recognize the LVD? Sigh. No. Without going into the specifics of SCSI-3, it's backward compatible. It's a PER CHANNEL thing. I haven't made any comment about your disk array's channel because you indicated it was on its own channel. When the ATTO configures each channel at boot, it senses what's out there, configures each channel to the lowest common denominator for that channel. You attach SCSI-1, you get SCSI-1 operation on that channel, etc. Slow, single-ended, etc. If everything is LVD on both channels, you get LVD operation on both channels, etc. See the tech sheet for the UL4D from ATTO's site: ATTO UL4D tech sheet If you've got further questions, I suggest that you contact ATTO. Their support is excellent. If you get the ATTO, be sure to update the firmware and driver. Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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