derekL Posted August 26, 2002 Report Share Posted August 26, 2002 Does anyone know any software that has regular user access and scheduling? I purchased Retrospect Workgroup 5.0 but I cannot use it. I just switched to OS X. What I need is only a few basic futures in my backup software: 1) REGULAR user access to remote volumes mounted on backup station. I don't want to be ROOT. 2) Speed - Retrospect speed 180Mb/min to internal HD on Dual 1GHz G4, SilverKeeper is backing up at 470Mb/min (over the network) 3) Scheduling - SilverKeeper does not have scheduling implemented yet. Since I cannot use Retrospect I am backing up using SilverKeeper (by hand - with no scheduling). I want to use retrospect, since I was using it for years. I can forget about slowness, but not ROOT access. There is NO WAY I would allow retrospect to run as ROOT. Retrospect is great software but it MUST have option to be regular user. WHY OTHER, CHEAPER or even free SOFTWARE can do it? I don't care about the price - I want to have regular user access optiion. I am not interested in workarounds. Derek Lambert Prepress System Manager Litho-Art Inc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 26, 2002 Report Share Posted August 26, 2002 > 1) REGULAR user access to remote volumes mounted on backup station. I don't want to be ROOT. You only need to log in to the Finder as root if you are backing up a mounted volume and using Express, or if you wish to access files in the Finder and in Retrospect at the same time. Unfortunately, this requirement was imposed by Apple; OS X is more stringent in the realm of permissions, and errs on the side of caution when allowing access to remote volumes. Until Apple changes this, there isn't much that Retrospect can do, and you won't be able to simultaneously see files on a mounted volume and back them up unless you are logged into the Finder as root. We are certainly working with Apple for a resolution to this. > 2) Speed - Retrospect speed 180Mb/min to internal HD on Dual 1GHz G4, SilverKeeper is backing up at 470Mb/min (over the network) Retrospect writes and verifies at the fastest speed possible for your system while still maintaining data integrity. I'm not familiar with Silverkeeper, and don't know how its processes and verifications compare with Retrospect. In the end, the program that works the best for you will be the software that you use. If you prefer Silverkeeper's speed to Retrospect's flexibility and data protection, you're welcome to continue using it. Irena Solomon Dantz Tech Support Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CallMeDave Posted August 26, 2002 Report Share Posted August 26, 2002 In reply to: What I need is only a few basic futures in my backup software: 1) REGULAR user access to remote volumes mounted on backup station. I don't want to be ROOT. What, exactly, do you mean by this? Retrospect, the application, always runs as a root process on an OS X machine. This is necessary to allow you to backup and restore a complete _working_ system. Security is assured by authentication (to run the program) and password protectcion or encryption of the actual data where it's stored. If you want to back up remote network machines you can either use a client (which will run as a root process on the remote OS X machine, or with appropriate permission access on a Windows machine) or you can mount the volume via AFP (Apple File Protocol) and access the files through the Finder. If you go the AFP route you need to configure Retrospect to allow it to access the files you want. When you do this properly you will have access only to the files that the REGULAR user would have access to on that machine. You don't need to enable the root account on the machine that runs Retrospect. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekL Posted August 26, 2002 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2002 > or if you wish to access files in the Finder and in Retrospect at the same time. Yes. I want to access my files in the finder and retrospect at the same time. > until Apple changes this, there isn't much that Retrospect can do, and you won't be able to simultaneously see files on a mounted volume and back them up unless you are logged into the Finder as root. We are certainly working with Apple for a resolution to this. As long as this situation will be resolved in the future. I can live with it for a while (a few months), but I am glad that you are working on it. Let's me ask you a question: What is the temporary solution to that? I have 3 file servers now (2 running Windows 2000 server and 1 Xserve) I want to back the up every night (normal backup, no verification) and recycle backup on SAT and SUN to 6 External FireWire Drives 160Gb each. What "root" user will do for me on Windows 2000 Server? Till I find a solution I went back to OS9 and everything works fine. I would like to use OS X. Any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 26, 2002 Report Share Posted August 26, 2002 > Let's me ask you a question: What is the temporary solution to that? Use the Retrospect Client software. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekL Posted August 26, 2002 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2002 >>>>> Retrospect, the application, always runs as a root process on an OS X machine I have no problem with this >>>>> If you want to back up remote network machines you can either use a client (which will run as a root process on the remote OS X machine, or with appropriate permission access on a Windows machine) or you can mount the volume via AFP (Apple File Protocol) and access the files through the Finder. I do have Windows 2000 Servers. All my workstations are Macs. I am mounting servers with AFP and I am accessing files that way. What I need is to: 1) Archive my files as long term storage to DAT - I want to keep all original permissions - (everyone that can access server has all permissions to create/modify/delete all files on the servers). When I retrieve files back a few months later for pickup - everyone will be able to access them, not only the mac that backed them up, or retrieved them. 2) Backup as short term - I have 3 servers (2 Windows 2000 and Xserve) - and 3 Macs - Each Mac Backs up one server over the network every night. I am using those macs for other stuff during the day. I want to access files through fider and Retrospect at the same time. >>>>>If you go the AFP route you need to configure Retrospect to allow it to access the files you want. When you do this properly you will have access only to the files that the REGULAR user would have access to on that machine. What do you mean by properly configure Retrospect? Let say I have a Mac "m10" - this mac has read/write/modify rights on all my servers. It is running OS X and it is admin (as OS X is concerned). How do you configure Retrospect? Why? Where? I did not need to do that in Retrospect running OS 9? Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekL Posted August 26, 2002 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2002 >>>>> Use the Retrospect Client software. How? Do you mean - Install Retrospect Client software on Windows 2000 server and backup I mean duplicate my volumes to local mac? (I do not even do backup - I scripted duplicate, so I do not need to restore, just copy files over) Do I need Windows version of Retrospect for that? I have Retrospect Workgroup for Mac. Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 26, 2002 Report Share Posted August 26, 2002 As I said in my reply in the Windows forum, you need to use the Retrospect client software. This is the ONLY way to preserve permissions, and will eliminate the problem of not being able to access files in the Finder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekL Posted August 26, 2002 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2002 >>>>>>> As I said in my reply in the Windows forum, you need to use the Retrospect client software. This is the ONLY way to preserve permissions, and will eliminate the problem of not being able to access files in the Finder. OK I will try Retrospect Client to do that since I want to stay with OS X. Where can I find more info about this? User manual does not have a lot info about permissions and OS X stuff. Do I need any Windows version of Retrospect on the server? What kind of version? I don't know a lot about windows retrospect since I always used mac versions. If I have to buy Windows retospect I will buy it. What about OS X Server? Can I use Retrospect Workgroup with it? Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CallMeDave Posted August 26, 2002 Report Share Posted August 26, 2002 In reply to: I do have Windows 2000 Servers. All my workstations are Macs. I am mounting servers with AFP and I am accessing files that way. What I need is to: 1) Archive my files as long term storage to DAT - My personal opinion is that the two terms "long term storage" and "DAT" are mutually exclusive. But I digress... >>I want to keep all original permissions Accessing the files via AFP from the OS X Desktop will not maintain permissions. OS X doesn't work that way. The workstation you're sitting at does not have access to the server's database of user accounts when connected via AFP. If you copy files from the Finder, the permissions are not maintained. If you copy files via Retrospect you get the same results. But this may not matter for your needs; I don't know. >>When I retrieve files back a few months later for pickup - >>everyone will be able to access them, not only the mac that backed >>them up, or retrieved them. Retrospect uses the term "Restore" for how it retreives files from backups. If you are having unsatisfactory results from your Restore operations you should explain them in detail. Points 1 and 2 here do not make your needs or experiences clear. In reply to: I have 3 servers (2 Windows 2000 and Xserve) - and 3 Macs - Each Mac Backs up one server over the network every night. I am using those macs for other stuff during the day. What is theh purpose of these backups? Are you trying to maintain a copy of the working server's system, so that if it fails you can correct the problem quickly with a minimum of effort? Because if so you need to use Client software on the servers (both XServe and Win2k). If you are _not_ trying to backup the entire server's system (it's your own business what your plan is if the Xserve's boot drive dies, or if some other disaster befalls your OS) then you _can_ get the files backed up over AFP. But you should try and learn about how permissions work in unix; they're number based, not based on names or accounts. >>I want to access files through fider and Retrospect at the same time. Change your script schedule to a time that you are _not_ working on the Mac, unmount the server volumes from the Finder's Desktop before leaving work and let your now-properly configured Retrospect auto-mount the server for access during the Duplicate. You could probably write a cron job or an AppleScript to automatically unmount the server volume. There are ways to do this, although I'm not inclined to spend much time coming up with them for you. >>Let say I have a Mac "m10" - this mac has read/write/modify >>rights on all my servers. You could say it, but it wouldn't be accurate. The machine "m10" does not maintain the rights. It's the account on the server that has the rights; that same account used on another machine on the LAN will have the same access permissions to the same files. And that account does not have read/write/modify permissions to all files on the drive; just for fun, try logging in under AFP and deleting a file from /System/Library/Caches/ >>How do you configure Retrospect? Why? Where? Well, you could start by eading the riendly anual. Or the ReadMe that came with the software. Or you could do a search for "AFP" here in the forum and read one of the previous discussions on the issue (here's one: http://forums.dantz.com/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=Desktopworkgrupx&Number=2530&page=&view=&sb=&o= Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekL Posted August 27, 2002 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 Dave, I am sorry about not being clear. I do not worry about my servers system files - I do NOT backup those. All my servers have mirrored system drives. Even if they go down, it is not a problem. This is the reason I have 3 servers, not one. My concern are job files on those servers ( separate HDs SHARED). If one server is down, and I have my job files from this server somwhere duplicated I will just copy them over to a working server and I am ready. I have a spare G4, that I can copy files to and share this G4 so it can be temp server. Again - I do not backup system files /don't want to backup system files. Permissions to system files are not important to me as I will never back them up. What is important to me is to preserve job files permissions. Al my servers have accounts/users that can read/write/modify all files (job files, not system files). I am working for a prepress company and we have a lot of files supplied by clients that will be printed on our presses. What I need is to IMMEDIATE BACKUP to DAT, jobs that are done and delete them from the servers. If I need to pickup some photo months later I pop in the DAT and RESTORE to the server. This is my archiving. My overnight backup is done as a Script using DUPLICATE command. I do not use backup because I do not want to wast time to RESTORE later. This way I just copy my (duplicated) job files to another server so I can access them over the network and continue working. I checked manual and there is not much about OS X or permissions. Manual looks like the one I've got with Retrospect 4.3 - It is pretty good for OS 9 users, but not X. I am using Retrospect since 1994 and I have never used Client Software. There was no need since I was backing up DATA files only, never Server System files. If I have to start using Client Software now, because of OS X that's OK. I understand OS X is Unix based and much different. I am sorry that I was not clear before. I am NOT going to backup SYSTEM files, only MY JOB FILES. It is much easier for me to replace the server than Client supplied layouts and logos/pictures etc. Dave, since you know a lot about Client Software - Do I still need to use Client Software on the servers - If I want to backup files on SHARED Volumes only and no system files. Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CallMeDave Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 In reply to: What is important to me is to preserve job files permissions. To preserve the exact and complette inode information of a remote OS X (Unix) file during Backup or Restore one must use the OS X Client software. But, is this really what you want? If you backup your server's job files via AFP (with the understanding that since AFP doesn't recognize what root means then you'll have to make an effort to properly mount the AFP volume you want to back up) you'll be able to preserve copies of the valuable intellectual property. Now, when it comes time to Restore from the DAT, there are two ways Retrospect will behave (which _should_ be in the manual, but I don't have one in front of me...). I just answered this question yesterday. Here's the text I wrote in that thread: "Retrospect handles permissions two different ways, depending on the Type of Restore operation you perform. "If you perform the basic "Files and Folders" Restore (where the files from the Backup Set are Restored to a folder on the Client machine), the restored files will have the permissions of either the current logged in user (of the Client) or of root if the Client has no logged in user. "If you perform "Restore Entire" operations (Replace Entire or Replace Corrosponding) the restored files will maintain the permissions they had when they were backed up. "Note that although Retrospect uses the term "Replace Entire Disk" in describing these operations, it is actually a Replace Entire _Volume_ operation that can be performed on a folder that has been defined as a volume." In your case, the inode informatin of the files as they are stored on your DAT tapes are NOT the same as they were on the original computer; they can never be Restored exactly because they were never backed up exactly. You didn't describe how your Restore process works, or what your experiences are. Are you Restoring back to the server's mounted volume? Are you Restoring to other user's shared folders? The security model on OS X is complexe and unforgiving. Retrospect follows the operating system's rules; you'll have to learn about them to make things work as you want. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekL Posted August 27, 2002 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 >>>>>> You didn't describe how your Restore process works, or what your experiences are. Are you Restoring back to the server's mounted volume? Are you Restoring to other user's shared folders? Dave, Thank you for explanation. I think I will do some testing with one of my macs before I jump totally in OS X Retrospect. Well, when I have a new job to do I create a folder on the server volume mounted on the desktop.I copy all client files in there. Any files that we modify also go into this folder. This folder is considered A JOB FOLDER. I am backing up them to DAT, when the job is printed on the press. I usually wait till I have about 10 Gb of jobs and I do immediate backup to DAT DDS-3. When I need to pick up files from previous job I SEARCH FOR FILES AND FOLDERS, when I find the DAT tape I need I put it in and restore WHOLE JOB FOLDER (Pick-up) into A NEW JOB FOLDER with current job. I take the files I need and delete the rest. I always RESTORE whole JOB FOLDER because we do so many revision to client files that I want to make sure I have the latest. All job folders are residing on server volumes mounted on the desktop. This was my OS 9 way of working. I would like to keep this as similar in OS X as possible. In OS X I can have permission problems because I RESTORE FILES AND FOLDERS always on one of the 2 macs with DAT, but I never do any jobs (openning/modifications or printing) on those 2 macs. Their designation is Restoring jobs from DAT only. Then I open restored files (to server volume mounted on desktops) on other macs and complete the job on them. There is no owners of particular job folders everyone can do any job at any time. It is important that any person can open restored files on any mac. Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CallMeDave Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 In reply to: There is no owners of particular job folders everyone can do any job at any time. It is important that any person can open restored files on any mac. Sorry, but trying to be exactly sure what you're doing is making my head hurt. If you want files to have a particular permission mode, and if Retrospect is not providing that mode on Restored files, change the permissions after the Restore. Use the Terminal (chmod -R 777) to make all files rwxrwxrwx. Or use a GUI utility such as BatChmod. OS X is powerful. You can do anything if you know how. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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