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Backing up from a target disk rather than a client


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Greetings,

 

For the last six or seven years, I've been following the same Retrospect procedure successfully. I have a full version of Retrospect installed on my Mac G4 tower, and a client version installed on my iBook G4. Both are networked wirelessly via file sharing. Backups are made in the File format to an external La Cie 500 GB Firewire 400 Porsche hard drive, mounted for the occassion to the desktop of the G4 Tower. I back the G4 Tower up by the regular Retrospect immediate backup procedure.

 

I DO NOT, however, use the regular client software to back up the notebook, because it's always proven to take far, far too long. Instead, I first mount the external La Cie drive to the G4 Tower's desktop, and then also mount the iBook onto the same desktop in Apple's target disk mode. It's then a very fast and easy backup using the same basic immediate backup procedure (with a differently configured backup set, of course).

 

I recently needed to buy a new external hard drive, and attempted to start a fresh group of backup sets. The G4 Tower works as usual with no problems. The iBook will no longer complete a successful backup. It inevitably hangs about half way through, generating a long string of type -43 and type -36 errors.

 

Disk First Aid shows no problems with either the iBook's media, nor with its permissions. Even after specifying to Retrospect that it exclude all of the folders and paths that caused the errors on previous backups, it finds new causes for the same errors. After eleven attempts (approx 3 to 8 hrs each), the target disk mode still does not work.

 

I'd still rather not use the client mode if at all possible: it crawls along at a glacial pace, about 1/10th the speed of the regular backups, as my only connection option between computers is wireless -- thus my attempt at the more creative solution of target disk mode.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks,

 

Matson

 

G4 Mac Tower

OSX Version 10.4.10

400 MHz Power PC

1.38 GB SDRAM

 

iBook G4

OSX Version 10.4.10

1.42 GHz Power PC G4

1.5 GB DDR SDRAM

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My first thoughts on this is that there is a fault with your external hard disk, but you say that the G4 tower backs up ok to this drive… but perhaps check it with Disk Utility. I think you could try backing up via the Retrospect client, just to see if you get the same errors.

 

One way of significantly speeding this process up is to buy an ethernet cross-over cable so you can network the two devices directly, or set them up with a Firewire network (you can do this in the network control panel) - 400Mbps certainly beats 56Mbps.

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External hard disk is completely new, and has been verified by Disk Utility to be okay.

 

I've now tried several different setups since my last post, all with terrible results, as follows. I'm posting them below more for research and interest than anything else, as I'm more inclined to believe based upon what I've been reading about other Retrospect users' complaints about the current version and the upcoming release of Leopard (including Time Machine) that Retrospect is 1. highly problematic in the OS X 10.4.10 environment and 2. not likely to be improved or updated.

 

I'd certainly be happy to be informed that I'm mistaken, and that EMC has a resolution to this issue. If there is one, or other useful suggestions, I'm open to trying them. I've now spent/lost six full working days trying to perform backups without a single success, and I'm beginning to wonder whether all of the times that Retrospect has hung both of my computers hasn't in fact started to corrupt, rather than preserve, their system integrity.

 

Results as follows. Keep in mind these are AFTER having tried eleven previous backups via target disk mode, all failed by type -43 and type -36 errors:

 

1. Networked both computers via Ethernet. Brought iBook up onto G4 Tower's desktop. Attempted to backup to it as a desktop volume. Received a "Major Error During Scanning" message, but Retrospect initiated backup until, 3 hours and 16 GB later, both computers hung. Even after managing to regain control of cursor and forcing Retrospect to quit, both computers are unresponsive outside of Finder. Needed to hard restart both. Checked Retrospect log, received following:

 

While scanning volume G4 iBook,

Folder G4 iBook/usr/,

Duplicate dirid detected: 0x000e2994

Volume root G4 iBook/,

Scanning incomplete, error -127 (volume corrupt?).

 

+ Executing Immediate Backup at 7/21/2007 4:00 PM

To backup set G4 iBook…

 

- 7/21/2007 4:00:38 PM: Copying G4 iBook…

Can't read file “.hotfiles.btree”, error -5000 (server: no privileges), path: “G4 iBook/.hotfiles.btree”.

 

. . . And so on. There followed a long list of additional -5000 and -43 errors. Checked both computers via Disk Utility; no problems reported with either media or permissions.

 

2. I now tried two different options. First, networked computers via Firewire By IP. This time, went the full route of registering and logging in the iBook as a client. No dice: almost identical errors:

 

While scanning volume G4 iBook,

Folder G4 iBook/usr/,

Duplicate dirid detected: 0x000e2994

Volume root G4 iBook/,

Scanning incomplete, error -127 (volume corrupt?).

 

+ Executing Immediate Backup at 7/21/2007 10:28 PM

To backup set G4 iBook…

 

- 7/21/2007 10:28:53 PM: Copying G4 iBook…

Can't read file “.hotfiles.btree”, error -5000 (server: no privileges), path: “G4 iBook/.hotfiles.btree”.

7/21/2007 10:30:27 PM: Execution stopped by operator.

Remaining: 409505 files, 44.7 GB

Completed: 27 files, 10.8 MB

Performance: 15.0 MB/minute

 

Again, forced Retrospect to quit, then checked both computers via Disk Utility; no problems reported with either media or permissions.

 

 

 

One final note: I've been successfully using Retrospect on these two computers for the last two years. I always did so by mounting the iBook onto the G4 (which has the full licensed version installed on it; the iBook has the client) as a target disk. Suddenly, with 10.4.10, that's no longer working. The troubling thing seems to be that neither is any other permutation.

 

Thoughts?

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No one likes a juicy post full of data points more then I do. But my first read through this thread was confusing, so I'll try and go through it bit-by-bit to see what's real and what's not.

 

For the last six or seven years, I've been following the same Retrospect procedure successfully.

 

 

Excellent.

 

 

I have a full version of Retrospect installed on my Mac G4 tower, and a client version installed on my iBook G4.

 

 

OK, although reading ahead seems to imply that you don't _use_ the Retrospect OS X Client software on the iBook; readers are left to wonder why it's there?

 

 

Both are networked wirelessly via file sharing.

 

This statement makes no sense. Networking interfaces aren't related to things that might be done over the network. Does file sharing have anything to do with how you use Retrospect?

 

 

Backups are made in the File format to an external La Cie 500 GB Firewire 400 Porsche hard drive, mounted for the occassion to the desktop of the G4 Tower. I back the G4 Tower up by the regular Retrospect immediate backup procedure.

 

 

Please confirm that "File format" is intended to describe a File Backup Set, stored on an external FireWire drive.

 

 

I DO NOT, however, use the regular client software to back up the notebook,

 

 

As noted, if you don't use the client software, there is no need to have it installed.

 

 

because it's always proven to take far, far too long.

 

 

Network data transfers go as fast as the available interfaces support. What's "too long" for some might be fast enough for others.

 

 

Instead, I first mount the external La Cie drive to the G4 Tower's desktop, and then also mount the iBook onto the same desktop in Apple's target disk mode.

 

 

Perfectly fine method, except that it requires a shutdown and subsequent restart of the machine you're trying to backup, as well as a lot of shuffling of cables. Network backups via the client software can be done anytime, which many users find beneficial.

 

 

It's then a very fast and easy backup using the same basic immediate backup procedure (with a differently configured backup set, of course).

 

"Same" as what? "Differently configured Backup Set" as what? This implies that there's something I've missed above.

 

 

I recently needed to buy a new external hard drive, and attempted to start a fresh group of backup sets.

 

 

Cool. What did you get? Do you still have the old one?

 

 

The G4 Tower works as usual with no problems.

 

 

By "as ususal," do you mean a Normal backup to a File Backup Set stored on the new external drive?

 

 

The iBook will no longer complete a successful backup. It inevitably hangs about half way through, generating a long string of type -43 and type -36 errors.

 

 

Retrospect's Operations Log much more helpful then you're giving it credit for. It does not simply generate "a long string of type -43 and type -36 errors," but instead provides details about when the errors occur (during Backup or Compare) and will also give path information for both Backup Set("set) and Source Volume ("vol").

 

 

I note that there is some log information in the second post, but this is from a different, ill-conceived configuration (see below), so is unhelpful.

 

 

I'd still rather not use the client mode if at all possible: it crawls along at a glacial pace, about 1/10th the speed of the regular backups, as my only connection option between computers is wireless -- thus my attempt at the more creative solution of target disk mode.

 

 

As suggested in the first reply, it is simply untrue that Target Disk Mode (TDM) is your only option. If you can walk the iBook to the Desktop machine, you could simply connect them via an ethernet cable (cross-over cables are not necessary with modern Macintosh models; they will use a standard termination cable just fine).

 

 

Note that such a physical connection should still take advantage of the Retrospect OS X Client software; attempting to use other methods brings with it other requirements and considerations, that appear not to have been addressed based on the second post in this thread.

 

 

External hard disk is completely new, and has been verified by Disk Utility to be okay.

 

 

Ah, ok then. Can't possibly have a problem with it then. Nothing to see here folks; move along. Disk has been verified as working.

 

 

Seriously; If you still have the old drive testing this would be trivially easy:

 

 

1: Configure a test backup (Source: Some Volume on iBook, Destination: File Backup Set on old external drive).

 

2: Assuming that step #1 works, configure another test backup using the same Source, with the Destination: File Backup Set on new external drive.

 

3: If this fails, then repeat step #1.

 

If step #3 is successful then you have pretty much shown that the drive used as the location that the File Backup Set in step #2 is faulty. If Step #1 fails, then the addition of the new drive is simply a red herring, and is unrelated to the problem.

 

 

I've now tried several different setups since my last post, all with terrible results, as follows. I'm posting them below more for research and interest than anything else, as I'm more inclined to believe based upon what I've been reading about other Retrospect users' complaints about the current version and the upcoming release of Leopard (including Time Machine) that Retrospect is 1. highly problematic in the OS X 10.4.10 environment and 2. not likely to be improved or updated.

 

 

Retrospect 6.1.126 is no more problematic under OS X 10.4.10 then it has been under previous versions of OS X 10.4. I'm not sure what you've been reading, but it's quite possible that even though something is on the internet, it might not actually be accurate.

 

You may love Time Machine. You may hate Time Machine. Time Machine will not be able to do all the things that Retrospect can do, even though it will undoubtedly be much more beautiful.

 

Recent posts by an EMC employee have suggested that there are, in fact, plans to improve Retrospect after all. Of course, after all this time, only seeing will be believing.

 

 

1. Networked both computers via Ethernet. Brought iBook up onto G4 Tower's desktop. Attempted to backup to it as a desktop volume.

 

 

What does "desktop volume" mean in this context?

 

If you were using AFP (Apple Filesharing Protocol) then the correct term would be "Share" or "Share Point."

 

Using AFP with Retrospect is tricky, but the first thing that needs to be done is to read the ReadMe that is installed with the program. The second thing to do is not use file sharing if you can avoid it. Given the information provided so far, you can indeed avoid using a file sharing protocol.

 

 

Received a "Major Error During Scanning" message,

 

I have never seen any message stating "Major error..." Can you provide the exact language of the error?

 

 

but Retrospect initiated backup until, 3 hours and 16 GB later, both computers hung. Even after managing to regain control of cursor and forcing Retrospect to quit, both computers are unresponsive outside of Finder.

 

 

What does this mean? The Finder was responsive, but some "outside" space was not?

 

One of the few things that can bog down OS X is when mounted shares disappear. Since you were apparently using file sharing, it's not unreasonable to consider that this has something to do with your experience.

 

 

Needed to hard restart both.

 

 

So you say, although I remain unconvinced. It takes a lot to require a restart.

 

 

Checked Retrospect log, received following:

While scanning volume G4 iBook,

Folder G4 iBook/usr/,

Duplicate dirid detected: 0x000e2994

Volume root G4 iBook/,

Scanning incomplete, error -127 (volume corrupt?).

 

 

Ah ha. Now we're getting somewhere.

 

 

The hard drive directory on the iBook is corrupt. Duplicate dirids are a function of the volume structure; they should never, ever exist. Retrospect detected a problem on the drive. Drive problems lead to unexpected behavior. You're having unexpected behavior.

 

 

Can't read file “.hotfiles.btree”, error -5000 (server: no privileges), path: “G4 iBook/.hotfiles.btree”.

. . . And so on. There followed a long list of additional -5000 and -43 errors. Checked both computers via Disk Utility; no problems reported with either media or permissions.

 

 

This is common when you are incorrectly attempting to use file sharing with Retrospect. It is a permission problem, just as the error states.

 

Search the forum for "Mounted AFP Volume" and read some of the threads going back four or five years. It's probaby the number one topic of discussion here since Retrospect 5.0.205 shipped.

 

 

2. I now tried two different options. First, networked computers via Firewire By IP. This time, went the full route of registering and logging in the iBook as a client. No dice: almost identical errors:

While scanning volume G4 iBook,

Folder G4 iBook/usr/,

Duplicate dirid detected: 0x000e2994

Volume root G4 iBook/,

Scanning incomplete, error -127 (volume corrupt?).

 

 

Makes sense. Duplicate dirids will show up via any protocol. You could probably see them in the shell, if you knew how to look. Maybe Russ can tell us an easy script to run.

 

 

- 7/21/2007 10:28:53 PM: Copying G4 iBook…

Can't read file “.hotfiles.btree”, error -5000 (server: no privileges), path: “G4 iBook/.hotfiles.btree”.

 

 

When Retrospect is communicating to an OS X Client, you should have full read/write access to every file (since the client runs as a root process). So I'm suspicious that the report of an error -5000 when you are using the client software indicates some failure in your reporting.

 

 

But, if the only file you're getting the error on is "hotfiles.btree" then you can ignore it. That file does not need to be backed up, as the system will simply recreate it if you use this Backup Set for a full Restore.

 

 

One final note: I've been successfully using Retrospect on these two computers for the last two years. I always did so by mounting the iBook onto the G4 (which has the full licensed version installed on it; the iBook has the client) as a target disk. Suddenly, with 10.4.10, that's no longer working.

 

 

Computer problems always seem to happen suddenly. But correlation does not imply causation; your iBook could have suffered directory damage around the time of the system update; your replacement external HD might be a lemon. The actual issue might be one or both of these, or something else.

 

 

I'd suggest that the most pressing issue is the directory problem on the iBook. If Disk Utility doesn't see the problem, run Disk Warrior, which will. Neither program may be able to fix it, though. It might requre a reformat to address, as it's a pretty low level glitch.

 

 

Dave

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Greetings, and thank you for the vigorous replies.

 

Some follow ups (I'll stick mainly to initial issues and questions):

 

1. Took the time to have all disks checked with Disk Warrior, then again with Disk Utility. All verified as okay, no reported problems beyond a few erroneous permissions, which were easily fixed.

 

2. Tried target disk backup as described above just once more, failed again for same reasons.

 

3. As a side note, Apple states that with OS X 10.4.10, Firewire networking by IP can cause some issues with additional peripherals (See Apple TIL). This was not in fact part of my initial difficulty, which was via a wireless network, but does rule out using an external firewire hard disk as backup destination, as one option suggested by Clive. I did attempt it Clive, and thanks for the suggestion, but it too failed.

 

4. I then indeed went with a hardwired ethernet network setup (via hub, not direct), and routine client back up set. It did take much longer than previous backups of same volumes through target disk arrangement, but did work. Moreover, as the previous target disk set up no longer seems to function, for whatever reason, client via ethernet seems only option.

 

I cannot say whether this has anything to do with current OS, with hardware, or other issues, only that both redundant and varied/control attempts failed.

 

Thanks all for input.

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