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How restore High Sierra boot SSD that has been formatted as APFS?


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Saturday night 30 March I hastily decided that I needed to do a full-SSD restore of my Late 2016 MacBook Pro.  Because I didn't have a USB-C to-Firewire adapter, I started to do the restore from Saturday morning's Recycle backup over my LAN.  This was stupid, because the restore would have wiped out my Retrospect 15.6.1.105 Client, but it didn't get that far.  After "Finished deleting 2,385 unnecessary files and 198 unnecessary folders on destination", it bombed with  "!Trouble writing folder "Macintosh HD/Library/", error -1,017 (insufficient permissions)".  How does one avoid that with Retrospect, since I'm told Time Machine avoids it?

Meanwhile I was left with a MBP SSD with no usable macOS on it. I next attempted to download and install Sierra on the SSD, expecting to then be able to solve the permissions problem and rerun the backup application's Restore of my complete High Sierra disk. However I couldn't find how to do that download of the installer, and it was by then after Apple Support's 11 p.m. EDT closing time. I should explain here that, for reasons explained in this KB article and this Forums post, I'd prefer for now to keep all 6 drives on my 3 Macs using HFS+ rather than APFS.

So I phoned Apple Support around noon Sunday. I spent a couple of hours talking to the senior Support technician Jenna. I first downloaded a High Sierra installer, which left me with a single APFS partition. Disk Utility wouldn't let me erase that partition, or delete it because it was the first one created. I worked on the problem for another hour while Jenna took a four-hour break; I ended up with an SSD which sat forever with 7 minutes to go when I booted into the Recovery Partition, and stopped booting after a couple of minutes—showing a big white circle crossed by a right-slanting diagonal line—when I did a conventional boot without Command-R—etc..

Here's what happened after I took my MacBook Pro in to Mike's Tech Shop on Monday 1 April:

  • Despite my (open-box 15-inch Late 2016) MBP having come with macOS 10.12 Sierra installed, Apple has some database that says it can't run under anything earlier than macOS 10.13 High Sierra. So that's what Mike's had to install on Tuesday, and it formatted the MBP's 500GB SSD as a single APFS partition—which High Sierra and above inescapably do with any SSD.
  • Tuesday morning I  connected an external Firewire HDD to my 2010 Mac Pro backup server running Retrospect Mac 15.6.1.105 under macOS 10.12.6 Sierra, changed the permissions on all existing top-level folders to Read-Write for all users, and ran the same restore to the HDD.  It ran, but got over 90 cases of "[*] MapError: unknown Mac error 22" and ended with "!Trouble writing folder "/Volumes/Macintosh HD OS X+/.HFS+ Private Directory Data", error -1,101 (file/directory not found) 3/31/19 2:11:03 AM: Execution incomplete".  The HDD remains formatted with HFS+.
  • Tuesday afternoon I took my MBP home, booted it, and—using the pair of adapters I had bought to go USB-C-to-Firewire—ran Migration Assistant to copy my backed-up files from the external HDD onto the MBP's SSD. I chose the iCloud option, because I want to be able to access those files from my MacPro in case my MBP gets messed up again. It wouldn't install SUIDGuardNG.kext, but that turns out to be incompatible with High Sierra.
  • My MBP then would boot under High Sierra, but only using the MBP's built-in display. I normally use an inherited Apple 27-inch LED Cinema Display, connected to my MBP via a KVM switch and a StarTech USB32DPPro adapter. That adapter requires software from DisplayLink.com; at first it wouldn't install. I eventually found this and this Web page, and got the Cinema Display working Tuesday night.

So what do you suggest as a substitute for this complicated process?  I should note that, having also bought from Mike's a pair of adapters to go USB-C to-Firewire, I have since tried to boot my MBP from my external Firewire HDD.—it doesn't work.

 

 

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On 4/22/2019 at 4:00 AM, DavidHertzberg said:

Saturday night 30 March I hastily decided that I needed to do a full-SSD restore of my Late 2016 MacBook Pro... it bombed with  "!Trouble writing folder "Macintosh HD/Library/", error -1,017 (insufficient permissions)".  How does one avoid that with Retrospect, since I'm told Time Machine avoids it?

What OS was the MBPro on? Asking because that sounds more like Apple's new(-ish) security sandboxing kicking in, rather than an UNIX permissions error.

On 4/22/2019 at 4:00 AM, DavidHertzberg said:

Despite my (open-box 15-inch Late 2016) MBP having come with macOS 10.12 Sierra installed, Apple has some database that says it can't run under anything earlier than macOS 10.13 High Sierra.

If you fancy trying again, reboot with Command-Option-Shift-R held down -- that should install the OS version the Mac shipped with (unless that's the "Apple database" you mention).

On 4/22/2019 at 4:00 AM, DavidHertzberg said:

So what do you suggest as a substitute for this complicated process?

I'll confess, we long-ago decided to only back up user data while reinstalling the OS, apps, etc from scratch. Always seems like a good opportunity to clear out the cruft that accumulates over time. But for bare-metal restores in the past I've always connected the Mac-to-be-restored to another Mac (either client or the RS server) in Target Disk mode, though I guess lack of adapter prevented you from doing that initially.

I've a spare laptop sitting on the bench right now. Let me know the client OS and I'll set up a test (though it'll be with Server v13) using the "Live Restore" instructions here.

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3 hours ago, Nigel Smith said:

What OS was the MBPro on? Asking because that sounds more like Apple's new(-ish) security sandboxing kicking in, rather than an UNIX permissions error.

If you fancy trying again, reboot with Command-Option-Shift-R held down -- that should install the OS version the Mac shipped with (unless that's the "Apple database" you mention).

I'll confess, we long-ago decided to only back up user data while reinstalling the OS, apps, etc from scratch. Always seems like a good opportunity to clear out the cruft that accumulates over time. But for bare-metal restores in the past I've always connected the Mac-to-be-restored to another Mac (either client or the RS server) in Target Disk mode, though I guess lack of adapter prevented you from doing that initially.

I've a spare laptop sitting on the bench right now. Let me know the client OS and I'll set up a test (though it'll be with Server v13) using the "Live Restore" instructions here.

You're right, Nigel Smith, what I described in my first paragraph in this thread's OP looks like System Integrity Protection kicking in for an Apple-installed application in Macintosh HD/Library.  According to this section of the Ars Technica article, if I had known to do so (a different error message number and text in Retrospect would have been informative :rolleyes:) I could have temporarily disabled SIP by booting into the Recovery partition and invoking csrutil from Terminal.

As described in my second and third paragraphs, after messing around with Jenna's help on Sunday 31 March I couldn't boot my MacBook Pro into the Recovery partition.  Moreover, in trying to do so I think I would have run into the same "Apple database" problem Mike's Tech Shop ran into if I wanted to revert to macOS 10.12 Sierra—which wouldn't have forcibly formatted the MBP's SSD in APFS as High Sierra did.

I thank you for your offer to set up a test, but I don't think that will be advisable or necessary.  The "advisable" comes from my awareness that the text in the Retrospect Mac User's Guide—other than the "What's New" chapter—hasn't been updated in around 5 years (the same is true for the Retrospect Windows UG), so I rather doubt that the "Live Restore" instructions still work for recent versions of macOS.  The "necessary" comes from my MBP having been restored to satisfactory functioning per the last bulleted  item in this thread's OP.

I've converted this thread's OP into Support Case #67374, and have already received two responses from the head of Retrospect Tech Support. :o   I'm inclined to let him deal with the "bare metal" Restore problems or turn them over to the engineers. :)

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15 hours ago, DavidHertzberg said:

As described in my second and third paragraphs, after messing around with Jenna's help on Sunday 31 March I couldn't boot my MacBook Pro into the Recovery partition.

Not needed. Command-Option-Shift-R will do an Internet Recovery to the "as shipped" OS version -- including access to Disk Utilities and Terminal so you can nuke the APSF-formatted drive back to an HFS+ one. I don't know what the "Apple database problem" is, but I do know that MacTracker agrees with you as to the original OS version. If you *really* want to check, download the 10.12 installer, make a bootable USB installer with it, boot from that installer and you'll either get the opportunity to install (Stop! Do not pass go!) or a dialog to the effect that "This hardware is not supported". If you want, but can't find, the Sierra installer then let me know -- be warned, it's a 4.8GB download...

I'm thinking it's more likely that the "database problem" was simply that 10.12 won't install on an APSF-formatted drive -- if they had managed to get that back to HFS+ first it might have been a different story.

Disabling SIP may not have helped you -- that's only one part of Apple's "modern" protection scheme and doesn't (AFAIK) protect /Library. /System and therefore /System/Library, yes -- but not /Library. Other sandboxing elements have been introduced over time, and it might be one of those.

I'd still like to have a play, even if the results won't be directly applicable to your situation. So let me know the OS version as of "Saturday night 30 March" when this all kicked off and I'll see if I can replicate and check the validity of the "Live Restore" instructions.

It's a bit quiet here after the Easter hols, so I'm looking for a project anyway!

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Nigel Smith,

Command-Option-Shift-R directly following  powering-on my MacBook Pro boots into the same macOS 10.13 High Sierra environment it normally boots into, including all my Documents and such non-Apple applications as Firefox and Retrospect Client.  That contrasts with doing the same thing on my "backup server" Mac Pro, where Command-Option-Shift-R directly following  powering it on immediately brings up a dialog box offering me Disk Utility etc..  So it's not that I'm "holding it wrong"; it appears to be the fact that my MBP's SSD was formatted with a single APFS partition by Mike's Tech Shop, while the SSD my Mac Pro normally boots from was formatted with HFS+ and populated with macOS 10.12 Sierra after the SSD was inserted into one of the Mac Pro's drive trays by little old me.

IM very HO Mike's Tech Shop would have had to use the Terminal options of Disk Utility and possibly csrutil on my MBP to have "managed to get that back to HFS+ first".  That probably goes beyond what they're willing to do for US$75, and the employee who did it may not know how to do that at all.

I received a third Agent Response from the head of Retrospect Tech Support this morning.  The news in that is IMHO so explosive that I need to put it into context when posting it here, and I don't have time to do that before my physical therapy appointment.  My macOS version was 10.13 High Sierra under HFS+ as of Saturday night 30 March, but IMHO the real problem was with the incompleteness of the Retrospect 15 Restore onto my external HFS+-formatted HDD.  So have a good night's sleep, and the appropriate info will all be here for you tomorrow.

P.S.: SIP does indeed protect Apple-provided applications in /Library; read far enough down this section of the Ars Technica article describing it to look at the list generated by

cat /System/Library/Sandbox/rootless.conf

 

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The first Agent Reply to my Support Case #67374, whose Problem Statement was a slightly-edited version of my OP in this thread, was:

Quote

Agent Response: 

If the disk you backed up was running an HFS+ File system, the best option is to install 
the Mac OS into an external disk. Boot from that disk and while booted from that disk, 
install Retrospect.  Then perform a complete Restore of the entire disk back to the 
internal drive, while booted from the external volume.  

Please let us know if you have any additional questions.

My Additional Note response to that was [as edited to replace Support Case date-time-stamps with links to posts in this thread]:

Quote

Thanks, Robin, but a test I performed this evening makes me _question_ whether what you 
suggested—which is very complicated—would work.

I basically repeated what I described in the [second bulleted paragraph of my OP].  Because 
I have since Recycled the 1-Media Set Red drive I used on 2 April, it now contains (along
with other Recycle backups) a Recycle backup plus 3 No Media Action backups of my MacBook 
Pro—which is now formatted with APFS.  The external Firewire HDD remains formatted with 
HFS+.  The only difference in the results was a slightly smaller number (in the high 80s) 
of "[*] MapError: unknown Mac error 22".  Given the results recounted in the last sentence 
of [my OP], I haven't even bothered to try booting my MBP from my external Firewire HDD—it
almost certainly wouldn't work.  So why would doing a complete Restore of my MBP while 
booted from that external HDD work, just because the external HDD had previously been 
prepared with a macOS install and a complete install of the Retrospect Engine and Console?

I think the procedure described in the [third bulleted paragraph of my OP] is less trouble.
It does not assume that a complete Restore of the of the entire MBP SSD would produce a 
bootable SSD, just because the Restore is being done under control of the external SSD 
rather than under the control of my Mac Pro "backup server".  And what is your 
explanation of why the procedure described in the first paragraph of [this post] 
repeatedly didn't produce a bootable HDD on the external Firewire HDD—either when the 
restore was of a HFS+ backup or of an APFS backup?

What you have suggested is essentially the "Restoring a Mac using an Emergency Tools disk" 
procedure on pages 149-150 of the Retrospect Mac 16 User's Guide.  What I've successfully
done is a variant on "Using FireWire Target Disk Mode" on pages 146-149, not using Target
Disk Mode because I didn't have a USB-C-to-Firewire adapter.

 

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The second Agent Reply to my Support Case #67374  was:

Quote

Agent Response:

As noted in the original reply, we specifically said HFS+.  

If the internal Macintosh HD is an APFS volume, the process is very different and requires a bunch of terminal commands.  APFS volumes have a PreBoot volume and if that volume is lost or missing, the steps are totally different from an APFS volume that still has the PreBoot volume.  We have support cases open with Apple to try and find the best solution for users.  The easiest approach with an APFS volume is to reinstall the Mac OS and probably just restore your Users folder instead of trying to restore an entire OS. 

Please let us know if you have any additional questions,

My first Additional Note response to that was [as edited to replace Support Case date-time-stamps with links to posts in this thread]:

Quote

Let's first discuss what happened to me on 30 March, as described in [the first two 
paragraphs of my OP].  It may not have been sufficiently clear from the last sentence of 
that [second paragraph], but up through noon on Sunday 31 March my MacBook Pro's SSD had 
always been formatted with HFS+, and its Recycle backup on Saturday morning was backed up 
all the way to 1-Backup Set Red with HFS+.  So APFS isn't a factor then.

What it looks like instead is System Integrity Protection kicking in for an Apple-installed
application in Macintosh HD/Library.  According to this section of an Ars Technica article,
if I had known to do so (a different error message number and text in Retrospect would have
 been informative ) I could have _first_temporarily_ disabled SIP by booting into the 
Recovery partition and invoking csrutil from Terminal.

The Ars Technica Mac Forums post 
https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=37119277#p37119277 says "Time Machine, for 
example, would not have had an issue doing the restore. I know, I've used it to do a 
restore on multiple occasions."  So let's convert _this_post_ into an Enhancement Request: 
Add to Retrospect the capability of doing a _temporary_ disabling of SIP for the duration 
of a full-disk Restore of a Mac source disk.  If you folks feel that needs an extra 
check-mark box, then put one in.

My second Additional Note response to that was [as edited to replace Support Case date-time-stamps with links to posts in this thread]:

Quote

What you are suggesting in the only substantial paragraph of [Agent Reply at the top of this post] is IME far too pessimistic.

Take another look at the [third paragraph of my OP], along with [all the bulleted paragraphs of my OP] and [the final paragraph after them in my OP]. What I did was to have Mike's Tech Shop install macOS 10.13 High Sierra—which forcibly formatted my MacBook Pro's SSD as APFS, and then to use Migration_Assistant to copy over nearly all the the necessary other files from the non-bootable Restore I had done onto my external HDD. (The only problem was getting my external 27-inch Apple LED Cinema Display working again, which I solved Tuesday night 2 April in an hour or so by finding out how to re-download and re-enable the omitted DisplayLink software.)

So IMHO the question really is: Why did my external HDD _repeatedly_ Restore as non-bootable, with around 90 cases of "[*] MapError: unknown Mac error 22" followed by one ""!Trouble writing folder "/Volumes/Macintosh HD OS X+/.HFS+ Private Directory Data", error -1,101 (file/directory not found)"—which from the timestamp immediately ended the Restore? As I said in [my response in this up-thread post], I tried doing the same Restore from a cumulative Media Set made from my MBP after its SSD had been formatted with APFS, with almost precisely the same errors. (My external HDD remains formatted with HFS+, which makes it easy for me to FireWire-cable it to my Mac Pro "backup server" and use Disk Utility to re-initialize the HDD). If Engineering can give me a version of Retrospect Mac 16 with enhanced logging options, I'll be glad to re-test the Restore again.

 

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The third Agent Reply to my Support Case #67374—and IMHO it really is explosive—was: 

Quote

Agent Response:

>Mike's Tech Shop install macOS 10.13 High Sierra—which forcibly formatted my MacBook Pro's SSD as APFS

The issue is that the operating system and data is being restored to an APFS volume. AFPS has specific system requirements that make a restore of the full OS very complex and not supported by Retrospect at this time. We have been working with Apple on a long term solution for this limitation.

You may be able to do the following:

Restore the original system's user directory only onto a fresh Mac OS system installed on the APFS disk. Then create a new user account exactly matching the name of the user's directory, let the permissions set on the directory, and then log in to that user.

Please let us know if you have any additional questions,

My Additional Note to that will be approximately [after replacing any links to posts in this thread with Support Case date-time-stamps]:

Quote

Dear Robin,

While you are working with Apple on a long-term solution,  why not try a fairly simple short-term solution based on what worked for me on Tuesday 2 April?  In essence, it is to execute versions of the procedures in the four bulleted paragraphs in my OP in this thread:

  • Install the appropriate version of macOS—10.13 High Sierra or later—on the boot SSD of the machine being restored, which will format the SSD with APFS. 
  • Obtain unrestricted use of a spinning rust HDD that has (1) enough capacity to contain a complete restore of the target machine,  and (2) a port or port-plus-adapter(s) that allow connection of the HDD to the target machine via FireWire or Thunderbolt.  Connect the HDD to your "backup server", erase the HDD and format it—with Ignore Ownership un-checked—with HFS+.  Then do a complete Restore of the the contents of the SSD of the machine being restored.  It doesn't matter if the HDD ends up un-bootable, or if there are some errors during the Restore.
  • Connect the HDD to the target machine with FireWire or Thunderbolt, boot the target machine, and run Migration Assistant (which may call itself Install Assistant) to copy as much of the contents of the HDD as possible onto the target machine's SSD.
  • Boot the target machine from its SSD.  If there's fancy software—such as DisplayLink—that wasn't successfully copied by Migration Assistant, Google installers for that software and re-install it on the target machine.

 

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14 hours ago, DavidHertzberg said:

P.S.: SIP does indeed protect Apple-provided applications in /Library;

OS 10.11.6 protects exactly *one* file in /Library -- com.apple.Boot.plist -- which wasn't your problem (unless the problem was over-vaguely reported by Retrospect).

OS 10.13 and 14 include a bunch more files/subdirectories in /Library (but not /Library itself), which is why I was asking what version you were restoring to.

It sounds like your original restore attempt was to 10.12, since you had an HFS+ SSD. Again, if you'll confirm I'll set a machine up and give it a go.

5 hours ago, DavidHertzberg said:

The Ars Technica Mac Forums post https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=37119277#p37119277 says "Time Machine, for example, would not have had an issue doing the restore. I know, I've used it to do a restore on multiple occasions."

Time Machine doesn't back up a bunch of files which an unfiltered RS backup *will* copy. I believe that, again, this varies by OS version. You can see the list in 

/System/Library/CoreServices/backupd.bundle/Contents/Resources/StdExclusions.plist

...and it may be that RS is trying to restore a file/folder into a SIP-protected area that Time Machine wouldn't have backed up in the first place!

I'm losing track here, and you still haven't said what the OS version of the backed-up laptop was, but it *sounds* like you (eventually) had an 10.12 backup to restore to a 10.13 machine. Retrospect's recommended route for "OS on the new Mac is newer than the backed-up OS" is simply a less comprehensive description of your solution. So it seems to be covered, though perhaps not as fully documented as it could be.

The only use-case I can see that is left are those who had an SSD, upgraded to 10.13 without converting to APFS, backed up, and are now trying to restore a 10.13 backup to a 10.13-enforced APFS disk. And if they had the technical knowledge to do the that "non-converting" upgrade then they should be able to get themselves out of the hole they dug for themselves...

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16 hours ago, DavidHertzberg said:

Command-Option-Shift-R directly following  powering-on my MacBook Pro boots into the same macOS 10.13 High Sierra environment it normally boots into,

That would also worry me, because it should work and doesn't.

Internet Recovery is a function of firmware. You should be able to boot to the Internet Recovery screen irrespective of network connection etc (although you might have problems after that e.g. if using a non-Apple ethernet adapter). But it can be blocked if you are using firmware security -- have you set a firmware password? Quick way to test would be to boot with the Option key held down -- if you go straight to the boot-disk choice screen you haven't, if you have to enter a password to get the boot-disk choice screen then you have. (Behaviour can vary with firmware version, but the preceding is probably the easiest and most consistent test.)

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Nigel Smith,

I didn't want to say before, because I thought it would be distracting.  My Late 2016 MacBook Pro came with macOS 10.12 Sierra in December 2017; I bought it open-box precisely because I thought High Sierra was too new.  A couple of months ago I upgraded it to High Sierra under the direction of an Apple Support person (he suggested it to fix a problem with several mini-apps in Dashboard); the upgrade file he told me to download did not re-format the SSD as APFS (presumably he had the "technical knowledge").  The backup I was originally trying to Restore, made on Saturday 30 March, was of the MBP's Macintosh HD formatted with HFS+.  My original attempted Restore (stupidly) over the LAN—which stopped because of  "insufficient permissions"—was made to the HFS+-formatted  MBP running High Sierra.  My external HDD, onto which I later Restored using Retrospect 15.6.1.105 running under Sierra on my Mac Pro "backup server", had probably previously contained a Restore of my old MBP—which IIRC was running OS X 10.10 Yosemite when its logic board died in December 2017.

Here's something that may blow your mind.  If I boot my MBP with the Option key held down, it goes directly to my ordinary High Sierra desktop.  That may be because there is no other drive cabled to the MBP.  I'll haul the external HDD from the bedroom into the study, cable it to my MBP with the USB-C-to-Firewire adapter string, and try that again; but not now, because I was up past 3 a.m. writing the posts above and copying the last reply as an Additional Note to my Support Case—so I'm going back to bed.  Late this afternoon I'll wander over to Mike's Tech Shop and try to find out if they did anything tricky to my MBP's firmware on Tuesday 2 April; the Ethernet adapter they sold me in December 2017 is a Moshi one sold under Apple auspices.

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What the head of Retrospect Tech told me in this Agent Response turns out to have been officially announced the day before in courageous ;) fashion—which I guessed is what might happen.  This revised section of an existing Knowledge Base article now says:

Quote

Known Issues

  • Retrospect cannot perform a bootable restore or bootable duplicate for an APFS destination volume. We are in touch with Apple to resolve this issue.

  • Instant Scan is not compatible with APFS.

Enjoy the weekend. :rolleyes:

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On 4/26/2019 at 3:53 PM, DavidHertzberg said:

Here's something that may blow your mind.  If I boot my MBP with the Option key held down, it goes directly to my ordinary High Sierra desktop.  That may be because there is no other drive cabled to the MBP.

Even without, that should still give you options -- e.g. to boot via a wireless network. And you should get a password dialog if firmware security has been set. So we're back to the standard fix -- zap the PRAM (Command-Option-p-r at startup and let it chime thrice, for those playing along at home). But only worth worrying about if, like me, you have an uncontrollable urge to pick at such things 😉

On 4/26/2019 at 3:53 PM, DavidHertzberg said:

A couple of months ago I upgraded it to High Sierra under the direction of an Apple Support person (he suggested it to fix a problem with several mini-apps in Dashboard); the upgrade file he told me to download did not re-format the SSD as APFS (presumably he had the "technical knowledge").

Never heard of that one! I know a Terminal-fix to force a HS-SSD-HFS+ install but it's pretty geeky, hence the "dug their own hole" comment. I haven't tried it recently but I see no reason why the instructions here won't still work. Perhaps the download included that in its launch instructions.

On 4/26/2019 at 10:02 PM, DavidHertzberg said:

Known Issues

  • Retrospect cannot perform a bootable restore or bootable duplicate for an APFS destination volume. We are in touch with Apple to resolve this issue.

To be fair to Retrospect -- Apple's repeated incremental tightening of security, while laudable, has made "fully functional restores" very much a moving target for all backup solution providers. Even Time Machine doesn't often get it right (we regularly have to re-register third-party software, download drivers, etc), so what chance do the others have? And, given the huge number of potential scenarios, they can't test for everything and so have to rely on us to report back. Kudos to you for bothering, and let's hope they resolve it soon.

But I would think that, when bootable restores aren't possible, restore to external HD then Migration Assistant is still a viable alternative.

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