allan_wade Posted October 18, 2002 Report Share Posted October 18, 2002 I just installed a Yamaha F1E (45x CR-R) with Firmware 1.0d. I am having a difficult believing how slow Retrospect is when backing up to this drive. I did a controlled test using the same files on unused CD's, with the Recycle option. The results: My old Sony 8x CD-R using 16x media - 33 MB per minute Yamaha 45x CD-R using 48x media - 24MB per minute!!! I also have the Retrospect 3.3 driver update installed. I've check the "Usual Suspects" (DMA is on, etc). Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmyJ Posted October 21, 2002 Report Share Posted October 21, 2002 Retrospect loads it's own drivers to write to any supported CD-R drive. These drivers are written to work as efficiently and reliably as possible with the drive. There is no way to adjust the write speed, short of turning compression on or off. Note that Retrospect writes in packet mode and will write data at the highest speed possible for your device. In some cases the firmware of a device will prevent Retrospect from writing data (in packet mode) at the normal designated write speed. Dantz is working with Yamaha to increase performance of this drive in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan_wade Posted October 25, 2002 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2002 Now that's amazing! I have demoed 2 of your competitors software. The slowest backing up to the Yamaha drive drive was 72.5 MB/min. I did another test, this time to disk. I backed up 234MB of data with Retrospect...no compression, no verification, etc. I wanted to get the fastest backup possible. Based on the Rerospect logs it took 48 minutes.....Your competitors longest was 19 minutes. So, if I'm understanding my results, your program is just slow. That coupled with a screwey user interface that defys all the laws of logic and sanity when trying to *easily* backup or restore anything but a full drive, and a disaster recovery scenerio that is equally as bad, makes me wonder why I have fought with this pogram sooo long. What was I thinking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steffan Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 Quote: Note that Retrospect writes in packet mode and will write data at the highest speed possible for your device. In some cases the firmware of a device will prevent Retrospect from writing data (in packet mode) at the normal designated write speed. Dantz is working with Yamaha to increase performance of this drive in the future. Using: Athlon 1700+ 512MB RAM VIA KT266A Chipset Motherboard Windows XP Pro SP1 Adaptec ASPI 4.60 Yamaha CRW-F1E ATAPI Revision 1.0f Retrospect Professional Edition Upgrade Version 6.0.206 RDU36 Driver Yamaha CD-RW 1.54 Using CDR media, what is the highest speed I can expect? What brand CDR will give me the highest speed? So far, 25MB/Min is about my maximum throughput. It's unsatisfactory. Using CD-RW media, what is the highest speed I can expect? What Brand CD-RW will give me the highest speed? Should I be using Adaptec ASPI or NT Passthrough? The knowledge base articles are not clear on this point. They recommend NT Passthrough for Windows NT and 2000, but don't specifically mention WinXP? Would installing ASPI V 4.71.2 make any difference? Would attempting a "custom" configuration of the CRW-F1E possibly help? Is the Builtin support for the CRW-F1E optimized and the best I can expect? Thanks Steffan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steffan Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 How do I get the Yamaha CRW-F1E ATAPI to perform at it's full speed of over 100MB+/min throughput with Retrospect 6, or, which CDRW have you tested that works best with Retrospect 6 and will give me optimum performance? Using: Athlon 1700+ 768MB RAM VIA KT266A Chip set Motherboard Windows XP Pro SP1 Adaptec ASPI 4.71.2 Yamaha CRW-F1E ATAPI Revision 1.0f Imation CD-R (700MB 48x) specifically approved by Yamaha for use with this device (see http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/computer/discf1.html) Retrospect version 6.0.206 Retrospect Driver Update, version 3.6.104 Stomp Backup MyPC 4.85 100B75A I did a test using 2.2GB of www.audible.com audible books, 87 large, compressed files. I used No Compression, Verify for both products. Stomp Backup MyPC wrote a full 735MB CDR in a little less than 7 minutes. That's a throughput of over 100MB/minute. Task Manager showed that my CPU was peaked at 100% utilization for most of that time. It took four CDRs to backup the 2.2 GB. Only 100MB or so were needed on the fourth CDR. Total time to backup 2.2GB (not verify) was 27 minutes. Retrospect backed up the same data, starting at a throughput of 18MB/min for each CDR and ending at near 27MB/min (23.2MB/mine average). Retrospect wrote 681MB on the first CDR (54MB less than Stomp Backup MyPC). It took 30 minutes to write each of four CDRs, longer than Stomp took for the entire backup. Retrospect did not use a significant portion of the CPU during this time. Retrospect took 43 minutes for the verify. Stomp took 18 minutes for the verify. Total time for a 2.2 GB, non-compressed, verified backup: Retrospect: 2hrs 23 minutes (not including media handling) Stomp: 44 minutes (including media handling) Retrospect put 681 MB on each CDR, Stomp put 731MB on the same CDRs. No compression was used. Therefore Retrospect requires 8% more media for the same task. I never used the Retrospect Express 5.6 that was bundled with the Yamaha CRW-F1, I assumed that v6 would be as good or better. Will the bundled version work better? I spent A LOT of time reviewing various backup programs, including these direct competitors of Retrospect: These are full backup recovery programs I reviewed: http://www.microsoft.com WinXP Pro NTBackup Utility. http://www.novastor.com NovaBACKUP 6.7 http://www.stompinc.com/bump/bump-retail.phtml?stp BackUp MyPC v4.85 (Formerly Backup Exec Desktop by Veritas) http://www.ntibackupnow.com Backup NOW! Deluxe 3.0 http://www.1vision.com/products/1safe/ 1Safe version 3.6 $65 http://www.cds-inc.com BackAgain II http://www.retrospect.com Dantz Retrospect 6.0 Professional http://www.iomega.com/software/iobackup.html Iomega Backup Software http://www.iomega.com/software/autobackuppc.html Iomega Automatic Backup http://www.ultrabac.com ULTRABAC 7.x BACKUP http://www3.ca.com/Solutions/Product.asp?ID=4536, CA BrightStor ARCserve Backup version 9 for Windows, $695, I also looked at these alternatives that don't really compete in the same space as Retrospect. http://www.secondcopy.com Second Copy 2000 http://www.leanware.com Backer6 http://www.handybackup.com HandyBackup 3.9, http://www.gelosoft.com Gelosoft's Synchromagic Home & Pro http://www.yarcplus.com Archive Creator http://www.backupplus.net ( http://www.avantrix.com ) Backup Plus v7.0.7 http://www.v-com.com/product/as_ind.html AutoSave v1.09 http://members.aon.at/dfg/products/a_backup_e.htm A_dailyBackUp http://www.eazy-ware.com/ Eazy-Backup http://ajsystems.com/outback.html OUTBACK Plus http://www.bigvault.com BigVault Plus Client, I bought full versions of several of these. After MUCH Study, I decided that Retrospect was the superior technology. I recommended it to many who trust my opinion. I stupidly assumed it was not only a clever design, but also a COMPETENT IMPLEMENTATION. It seems I was wrong. During this review, I have bought three different CD-RW drives. I started with an HP CDRW/DVD combo, then got a cheap Norcent RW400, then this top-of-the-line, leading edge Yamaha CRW-F1 with CAV and Mount Rainier. Every other product works well with it. If you can't tell me how to get the CRW-F1 to work properly, meaning 100MB+/min throughput, then can you tell me which CDRW you've tested that works fastest with Retrospect V6? And how fast does it work? I want a CDRW that is as least as fast with Retrospect 6 as is the CRW-F1 with Stomp Backup MyPC. Here are my log files. + Retrospect version 6.0.206 Launched at 2/9/2003 4:21 PM + Retrospect Driver Update, version 3.6.104 + Executing Immediate Backup at 2/9/2003 4:31 PM To Backup Set Audible A [001]... - 2/9/2003 4:31:49 PM: Copying Audible on DISK2_VOL1 (D:) 2/9/2003 6:11:21 PM: Snapshot stored, 58 KB 2/9/2003 6:11:33 PM: Comparing Audible on DISK2_VOL1 (D:) 2/9/2003 6:54:49 PM: Execution completed successfully Completed: 87 files, 2.2 GB Performance: 37.2 MB/minute (23.2 copy, 92.6 compare) Duration: 02:23:00 (00:24:42 idle/loading/preparing) Quit at 2/9/2003 8:05 PM **** Backup Product: Stomp Backup MyPC 4.85 100B75A **** Start Job Report ________________________________________________________________ Job Name: Audible Backup Job Started - 2/9/2003 11:53:15PM Backup Device: YAMAHA CRW-F1E Drive (E:) Backup Device Firmware: 1.0f Backup Product: Stomp Backup MyPC 4.85 100B75A Backup Type: Full - all selected files backed up will be marked as archived Backup Media: Audible 00025 - 2/9/2003 11:53PM A snapshot (shadow) copy of files that may be in use was made (Volumes: D:\). Backup Media: Audible 00026 - 2/10/2003 12:03AM Backup Media: Audible 00027 - 2/10/2003 12:10AM Backup Media: Audible 00028 - 2/10/2003 12:18AM Processed File Count: 87 Total Bytes Before Compression: 2,307,878,872 Operation Completed - Yes Backup Job Ended - 2/10/2003 12:19:54AM Compare Job Started - 2/10/2003 12:19:58AM Backup Media: Audible 00025 - 2/9/2003 11:53PM Backup Media: Audible 00026 - 2/10/2003 12:03AM Backup Media: Audible 00027 - 2/10/2003 12:10AM Backup Media: Audible 00028 - 2/10/2003 12:18AM Processed File Count: 87 Total Bytes Before Compression: 2,307,878,872 Operation Completed - Yes Compare Job Ended - 2/10/2003 12:37:35AM Thanks Steffan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steffan Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 In knowledge base article http://www.dantz.com/index.php3?SCREEN=kbase&ACTION=KBASE&id=27714 " Sadly, CD-RW drives today are commodity products where price/performance ratios are king. While many of the leading optical drive mechanism manufacturers, such as Lite-on, Plextor, Sony, and Yamaha, are able to produce drives that function properly with packet writing, other manufacturers, such as Samsung and Sanyo, produce drives with predictably unreliable or incomplete support for packet writing. If the drive can't support the commands, Retrospect cannot support the drive. " You mention that the Yamaha works. But the CRW-F1 doesn't. I've read forum posts stating that a $56 Dell Plexor 52x24x52 works at over 300MB/min. That's great, but the user was using Windows 98. I'm still searching Forum listings for a CDRW that works with WinXP Pro and RP6. Let me know of recommendations. I'll repost if I find one. Steffan Carroll steffan@usa.net 586-202-8676 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmyJ Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 Any supported Lite-On 48x or 52x drive should perform well over 100MB/min. At this time, we don't have benchmarks for the individual drives. CenDyne Lightning V 52x24x52 CD-RW (LTR-52246S version) Lite-On LTR-48125W Lite-On LTR-48126S Lite-On LTR-48246S Lite-On LTR-52246S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steffan Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 Thank you Amy. I spent a lot of time looking through posts, your website, and general Google searches looking for the best CDRW for RP6 with WinXP. I had found nothing except lists of CDRW drives that DON'T work well (ie, sanyo mechanism Liteon drives). When I bought the Yamaha CRW-F1E Atapi drive, I did so with a list of RP6 supported drives (plus lists of supported drives from other software). I'm disappointed that I now must buy another. But it's a small expense. I think Dantz could make some kind of "star" rating for drives so that of the qualified drives, a customer might choose the better of the lot. Amy, I think I've read elsewhere that you use the CRW-F1E on your home machine. What kind of performance to you see? Thanks again. Steffan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steffan Posted February 11, 2003 Report Share Posted February 11, 2003 Using: Athlon 1700+ 768MB RAM VIA KT266A Chip set Motherboard Windows XP Pro SP1, NTFS Adaptec ASPI 4.71.2 Yamaha CRW-F1E ATAPI Revision 1.0f Secondary IDE Channel Master, DMA On Imation CD-R (700MB 48x) specifically approved by Yamaha for use with this device (see http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/computer/discf1.html) Nero INfoTool Disc Medium INfo: CMC Magnetics, CD-R, 79:59.73 Retrospect version 6.0.206 Retrospect Driver Update, version 3.6.104 I discovered that in the previous test, The CRW-F1E was a Secondary IDE Channel Slave with DMA Off. I had a 1998 vintage DVD-ROM as the Master. I could not figure out how to turn DMA on with the CRW-F1E as the slave. After making the CRW-F1 the Secondary Master, Nero InfoTool showed DMA was ON for the two HDDs on the primary IDE and both Optical drives on the Secondary IDE. The RP6 performance, on a more limited test, showed that the average throughput increased from 23.2MB/min to 25.6 MB/minute, or 10% The Stomp BackupMyPC performance doubled. In the previous test, it took just under 7 minutes to write 735MB to fill a CDR, and CPU was maxed at 100% the whole time. After the CRW-F1E was changed to Master, DMA On, the 735MB CDR was written in about three minutes, with less than 10% CPU overhead. Is there any chance that RP6 will work well with the CRW-F1 in some future driver release? I'm going to wait a few weeks to upgrade my CDRW, using Stomp in the interim, in hopes that RP6 will be made to work well with the CRW-F1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steffan Posted February 12, 2003 Report Share Posted February 12, 2003 http://www.japancorp.net/Article.Asp?Art_ID=4720&SID=232 Yamaha to Withdraw From CD-R/RW Business Tokyo, Japan, Feb. 05, 2003 - (JCN Newswire) - Yamaha Corp. decided at a special board meeting to cease sales of CD-R/RWs for personal computers and to withdraw completely from the business by the end of March 2003. Since Yamaha entered the CD-R/RW market in April 1994 it has consistently led the industry in drive speeds and won high evaluation in performance and quality. However, amidst high competition and rapidly falling sales prices, the middle speed recorder market, which Yamaha had been targeting, has shrunk dramatically. Additionally, the market has seen DVD-compatible devices and personal computers with installed CD-R/RW drives become the norm. In light of this situation the Company had been working to leverage high sound quality technology and installation of direct print-in drive technology to maintain competitiveness. Yet under the current market conditions the Company deemed that it would be imprudent to continue operations and to invest further. Yamaha has therefore come to a final decision to cease sales of CD-R/RWs and to strengthen existing businesses such as home theaters and to develop new businesses using technology the Company has acquired over the years. Yamaha will maintain its after-sales support services for users and clients who have already purchased its CD-R/RW products. 1. Nature of the Agreement Withdrawal from PC CD-R/RW operation 2. Time of Withdrawal The end of March 2003 3. Current Sales Approximately 7.4 billion yen (forecast for the end of March 2003) 4. Affected Amount (Losses) 1 billion yen resulting from withdrawal 5. Influence on employment (Japan) Shifting into fast growing new industries. (Overseas) Minimal adjustments will be made to the number of employees. 6. Upcoming operation deployment The Company will improve its image device operations by promoting popular home theater devices and strengthening home theater sound devices. Increased focus on digitization and networking including broadband compatibility by using technology accumulated from AV and IT business. The Company will target Japan, US and Europe, followed by China, where Yamaha will begin full-scale operation from this fall. The Company will continue to deploy and market its original high added-value products. About Yamaha Corporation Yamaha Corporation (TSE: 7951) manufactures all kinds of musical instruments and professional audio equipment for professionals and amateur enthusiasts. From its base in Hamamatsu City, southwest of Tokyo, the company is also a leading producer of audio/visual products, semiconductors and other computer-related products, electronic equipment and specialty metals. For further information, please visit the Yamaha Corporation home page at: www.yamaha.co.jp/english Contact: Corporate Communications Group, Public Relations Division Saburo Seki 2-17-11 Takanawa, Minato-ku, Tokyo 108-8568 seki-sab@post.yamaha.co.jp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steffan Posted February 12, 2003 Report Share Posted February 12, 2003 I think I solved my Yamaha CRW-F1 problem. I ordered the Lite-On LTR-52246S, $59.90 Delivered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmyJ Posted February 12, 2003 Report Share Posted February 12, 2003 Hi Steffan - I see the speeds similar to what you are seeing. It depends on the kind of data being backed up. Copy speed averages around 60 mb/min and compare averages over 100 mb/min. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steffan Posted February 15, 2003 Report Share Posted February 15, 2003 SUMMARY: During Copy the Lite-On LTR-52246S at 282.2MB/Min is over 11X faster than the Yamaha CRW-F1 at 25.6MB/Min During Verification the LTR-52246S at 97.8 MB/min is only about 10% faster than the Yamaha CRW-F1. Stomp BackupMyPC copy performance is about the same as RP6, but STOMP BackupMyPC verify is much faster than RP6 Using: Athlon 1700+ 768MB RAM VIA KT266A Chip set Motherboard Windows XP Pro SP1, NTFS Adaptec ASPI 4.71.2 Yamaha CRW-F1E ATAPI Revision 1.0f Secondary IDE Channel Master, Ultra DMA Mode 2. Imation CD-R (700MB 48x) specifically approved by Yamaha for use with this device (see http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/computer/discf1.html) Nero INfoTool Disc Medium INfo: CMC Magnetics, CD-R, 79:59.73 Retrospect version 6.0.206 Retrospect Driver Update, version 3.6.104 + Retrospect version 6.0.206 Launched at 2/11/2003 4:11 PM + Retrospect Driver Update, version 3.6.104 + Executing Immediate Backup at 2/11/2003 4:15 PM To Backup Set Audible Backup Test... - 2/11/2003 4:15:50 PM: Copying Audible Backup Test on DISK2_VOL1 (D:) 2/11/2003 4:45:34 PM: Snapshot stored, 17 KB 2/11/2003 4:45:46 PM: Execution completed successfully Completed: 18 files, 733.9 MB Performance: 25.6 MB/minute Duration: 00:29:47 (00:01:06 idle/loading/preparing) Quit at 2/11/2003 7:15 PM Using: Same configuration as above, but with Lite-On LTR-52246S Firmware: 6S0A [in place of: Yamaha CRW-F1E ATAPI Revision 1.0f] Secondary IDE Channel Master, Ultra DMA Mode 2. + Retrospect version 6.0.206 Launched at 2/15/2003 1:41 PM + Retrospect Driver Update, version 3.6.104 + Executing Immediate Backup at 2/15/2003 1:57 PM To Backup Set Audible Backup Te [001]... - 2/15/2003 1:57:31 PM: Copying Audible Backup Test on DISK2_VOL1 (D:) 2/15/2003 2:00:51 PM: Snapshot stored, 17 KB 2/15/2003 2:00:58 PM: Comparing Audible Backup Test on DISK2_VOL1 (D:) 2/15/2003 2:09:27 PM: Execution completed successfully Completed: 18 files, 733.9 MB Performance: 145.0 MB/minute (282.2 copy, 97.8 compare) Duration: 00:11:56 (00:01:48 idle/loading/preparing) Note that performace increased from 25.6MB/Min to 282.2MB/min. Compare was not done in this short test useing the Yamaha, but previous test showed that compare was about 92MB/min, or 4 times faster than the copy speed. The Lite-ON LTR-52246S was over ten times faster than the Yamaha during copy, but about the same speed (97MB/min) during compare. That is curious and disappointing, but I can live with it. Start Job Report ________________________________________________________________ Job Name: Audible Backup Test 2 Backup Job Started - 2/15/2003 2:49:43PM Backup Device: LITE-ON LTR-52246S Drive (E:) Backup Device Firmware: 6S0A Backup Product: Stomp Backup MyPC 4.85 100B75A Backup Type: Full Copy - all selected files backed up will not be be marked as archived Backup Media: Audible Backup Te 00031 - 2/15/2003 2:49PM A snapshot (shadow) copy of files that may be in use was made (Volumes: D:\). Backup Media: Audible Backup Te 00032 - 2/15/2003 2:53PM Processed File Count: 18 Total Bytes Before Compression: 769,450,068 Operation Completed - Yes Backup Job Ended - 2/15/2003 2:54:17PM Compare Job Started - 2/15/2003 2:54:18PM Backup Media: Audible Backup Te 00031 - 2/15/2003 2:49PM Backup Media: Audible Backup Te 00032 - 2/15/2003 2:53PM Processed File Count: 18 Total Bytes Before Compression: 769,450,068 Operation Completed - Yes Compare Job Ended - 2/15/2003 2:58:05PM ________________________________________________________________ End Job Report I will now happily use RP6, but I'll probably skip the verification phase on occasion. Steffan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmyJ Posted February 18, 2003 Report Share Posted February 18, 2003 Thanks for posting the results of your testing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steffan Posted April 29, 2003 Report Share Posted April 29, 2003 The 3.8 Device driver update claims to have increased performance of the Yamaha CRW-F1E. My tests with 3.7 drivers showed about 25MB/min. I upgraded to Amy's recommended Lite-on product that gets 297MB/min. Is there any estimate on the probable speed of the Yamaha with the new updates? Is verification run any faster? The Liteon writes at 297Mb/sec but verifies at only 100MB/sec. I've still got the Yamaha, I'd switch to whichever CDRW has the fastest write/verify times, but I don't want to do another research project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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