JeffNY Posted December 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 >>I question how you have this set up under the Network tab on the Airport setup.<< See third panel down in this: http://home.earthlink.net/~jeffny61/RetroAirport.JPG >>What's behind that Airport tab (the first one)? Any way to set routes or do firewall stuff?<< Let me go get a screen shot.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffNY Posted December 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 Here are the AirPort and Access Control Tab panels http://home.earthlink.net/~jeffny61/RetroAirportAccess.JPG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhwalker Posted December 2, 2006 Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 Quote: Here is the TCP panel on the MDD http://home.earthlink.net/~jeffny61/RetroMDDTCP.tif .....the MDD does not have a WiFi card installed. Then I must have been confused. My apology. I thought that the notebook was on a WiFi network from the Airport, and I had been looking at the WiFi panes of the Airport config. But some of the network numbers may not make sense. Quote: >>I question how you have this set up under the Network tab on the Airport setup.<< See third panel down in this: http://home.earthlink.net/~jeffny61/RetroAirport.JPG /> That's exactly what I was referring to when I said: Quote: I'll admit that I've never set up an Airport before (we use SonicWALL at our perimeter), but I question how you have this set up under the Network tab on the Airport setup. I would think that you would have the box checked for "Ethernet computers share a single IP address using NAT" and that you would have "Enable DHCP server on Ethernet" checked too - that way, the Airport would have the public IP on its WAN side, and would create two subnets, one on the WiFi side, one on the LAN side; the computers on the LAN would get an IP by DHCP for their subnet, and the WiFi notebook would get its IP as it does now, by DHCP. You've got Wifi ("Airport") to Ethernet bridging enabled, DHCP on Wifi ("Airport"), but not DHCP on Ethernet, Ethernet computers are not using NAT - which means you've got the base station acting as a bridge from WAN to LAN. Not how I would expect. Ok, then let me step back. Is your topology: WAN | (IP 192.168.123.104/24, earthlink upstream router at 192.168.123.254) Airport (LAN IP 10.0.1.1) | |------------- MDD (Mac OS X 10.4.8) (IP ?) | |------------- Beige G3 Tower (Mac OS Classic 9.2.2) (IP ?) | |-------------- Pismo notebook (Mac OS Classic 9.2.2, IP 10.0.1.9) I'm just not understanding how the Airport separates the Pismo from the MDD. Please provide IP of MDD and correct my understanding. Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhwalker Posted December 2, 2006 Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 You said you have an old Airport. I poked around at the Apple web site and read the manuals for the Airport Base Station (Graphite) and the Airport Base Station Rev 2 (Graphite), and neither has a firewall; they are just NAT routers with WiFi. So there's no firewall blocking there. But they might not route broadcast packets, so you might not be able to do client discovery, might need to add client by IP. But, since there seems to be no way to get the Airport to do static map DHCP by MAC address (only dynamic scope DHCP from a pool), your IP might change. And there seems to be no way to enter routes into the Airport. But I would like to better understand the topology you have. Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhwalker Posted December 2, 2006 Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 Well, it's late and I'm tired. If you report further results I will take a look at it tomorrow. good luck. It is puzzling why the port 497 stuff isn't getting through; maybe I will understand better when the network topology is clearer. russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CallMeDave Posted December 2, 2006 Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 Quote: Today is the first time someone mentioned Port 497 specifically. Well, except for the time I mentioned it on October 28th (post #91108). Russ is showing the patience he's famous for; as I've said before, he's a saint. But he can be wrong too, sometimes... > Unless you've installed something odd on the client (e.g., IPNetRouter, etc.), it will not have a firewall Not true. OS X includes, by default, ipfw. This is the unix process that allows/denies network traffic, which can be enabled/configured by various utilities (including Apple's Sharing preference pane) (of course, the Sharing preference pane would reflect the state of ipfw, and it does look as if it's not running on the machine). Try "man ipfw" in Terminal for the ugly story, or read this O'Rielly article for a complete geeky but slightly more accessable description. The fact that the macine is not pingable on the network pretty much proves that this is not a Retrospect problem. Knowing this, the whole "TCP/IP network guru " rant seems pretty well misplaced. As I wrote in my post last month: "The "select a backup client" field will show clients that respond to a broadcast message sent via UDP on prt 497. Log in and communication is then handled via TCP on the same port. We know that there is physical connectivity, but something appears to be blocking the TCP packets." This might explain why you are seeing your clients in the Backup Clients on Network window; your UDP traffic is routing, but for some reason (likely related to network infrastructure) your TCP packets are not. There is no doubt that AppleTalk was pretty easy, and TCP/IP is more complex. But oh well, I wouldn't want to go back to LocalTalk cables, PhoneNet adapters or Gatorboxes anytime soon! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhwalker Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 Quote: > Unless you've installed something odd on the client (e.g., IPNetRouter, etc.), it will not have a firewall Not true. OS X includes, by default, ipfw. This is the unix process that allows/denies network traffic, which can be enabled/configured by various utilities (including Apple's Sharing preference pane) (of course, the Sharing preference pane would reflect the state of ipfw, and it does look as if it's not running on the machine). sorry, Dave, you are wrong here. The problem client is running Mac OS Classic 9.2.2. Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CallMeDave Posted December 4, 2006 Report Share Posted December 4, 2006 Doh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffNY Posted December 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 Sorry, went to a Christmas Party saturday and caught a stomach bug & cold!!!! Why people have parties or show up at them when they are sick is beyond me.... Anyway, here is the network layout (also posted 11/29) http://home.earthlink.net/~jeffny61/RetroNetwork.JPG ....for simplicity this layout does not show these machine (all of which are plugged in directly to the Asante switch) - MDD DP 1.0GHz running 9.2.2 (my Helix Server database server) - a Digital Audio G4 running 10.4.8 - the Beige G3 Tower (running 9.2.2 and former network backup machine) - HP4101 and HP4050 printers - Beige G3 Desktop running 9.2.2 (my fax reciever) >>There is no doubt that AppleTalk was pretty easy, and TCP/IP is more complex. But oh well, I wouldn't want to go back to LocalTalk cables, PhoneNet adapters or Gatorboxes anytime soon!<< Dave, granted AppleTalk was not perfect, it could put excessive traffic on the network trying to poll for nodes for one, but it did and does run fine on Ethernet, even Gigabit ethernet. And lets not forget the cost. 20 years ago you could build a LocalTalk network for under $100 bucks. At the time ethernet cost at least an order of magnitude more (and PC's had no similar "Plug N Play" networking for file sharing, printer sharing or messaging). AppleTalk has also probably not been under development for probably 15+ years. So lets not confuse AppleTalk and LocalTalk cabling. Oh, and in all my years using AppleTalk I can recall none of the errors I now get using TCP/IP. Also, more errors this morning with Retrospect trying to see the DVD disk in my Pioneer 111 drive....a SCSI error no less! http://home.earthlink.net/~jeffny61/Retro.nodiskerror2.tif http://home.earthlink.net/~jeffny61/Retro.scsiError.tif Is EMC/Dantz testing this software at all??? I am getting tried of restarting everytime I want to do a back up just so Retrospect can see and recognize its own DVD backup disk! >>sorry, Dave, you are wrong here. The problem client is running Mac OS Classic 9.2.2.<< Russ, you are assuming the "problem" is the "Client" on the OS 9 machine? hummm....if I were a betting man I would place my bets elsewhere heeheee Seriously, I am not sure that was a jab at OS 9 or not, but if it was lets keep in mind the PB was able to be backed up as a Client when Retrospect ran on a OS 9 machine. Look, even Woz saw no need to kill 9. But there were many reason Apple (Steve) felt Apple needed to move on (with both OS and network protocols)....and who am I to disagree? Steve guided Apple from the edge of the abyss to a computer (and media) company to reckoned with on many fronts. But lets give credit where credits due, OS 9 (and prior) served us well, and if it had had another 8 years of development (instead of "Pink" and that other vapor OS-ware Apple was working on) who knows what it could have been. Same for AppleTalk. Lets not be so fast to bash our "old friends" who served us faithfully on our desktops for so long. I don't want this to become an OS 9 vs OS X debate. But I felt a need to defend some of these points. And the reality is I am now finally trying to move to OS X. I put it off as long as I could, but the PowerBook will be "upgraded" soon. Thanks for the help, Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhwalker Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 Quote: Russ, you are assuming the "problem" is the "Client" on the OS 9 machine? Not at all. The "problem" is as you have stated in the original thread subject: "6.1.126 not talking to 5.1 Client". There was the possibility that you had installed a third-party firewall/router on the Mac OS 9 computer (e.g., IPNetRouter) that was blocking the packets. My suspicion all along has been that the problem is the Airport device, not routing the port 497 packets and not routing the Retrospect broadcast packets that allows discovery by machine name, not IP. You still have not performed the confirming test I requested on 12/1/2006 of putting the Pismo OS9 notebook on the same wired LAN segment as the MDD G4 that is running Retrospect. If that test works and allows the Pismo client to be seen by Retrospect on the MDD G4, then it confirms that the problem is not with Retrospect, and is not with the Pismo OS 9 client, but with the configuration/operation of the Airport. You may need a different wireless router (or perhaps an update to your Airport, or a later-version Airport) to get things to work if Retrospect is able to see the client when on the same wired LAN segment but not when the client is on the wireless subnet. Until you can get your Airport to pass port 497 (UDP and TCP) packets, you will not be able to back up a Retrospect client on that wireless subnet. That's not a Retrospect problem, it's an Airport problem, and is the same as if the Airport were turned off. If you cannot get the Airport to also pass the Retrospect broadcast packets, by which Retrospect learns the IPs of its clients, then you will have to add the Pismo client by IP even if you get the Airport to pass port 497 packets. If you add the Pismo client by IP, then if the Pismo gets its IP from a dynamic DHCP pool (rather than a static-mapped DHCP pool that is mapped by MAC address), the IP will change and you will not be pleased with having to forget and re-add the client when you back up. Retrospect can't overcome network routing failures in your network setup. Regards, Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CallMeDave Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 This thread has branched into multiple issues. Russ seems to have the client issues well in hand, so you should perform the tests that he suggests; throw the guy some love. > the PB was able to be backed up as a Client when Retrospect ran on a OS 9 machine Was _nothing_ else changed since then? Was the network topology exactly the same as it is today? The device issues need some additional information. Have you posted the specs for the Pioneer drive? Not a screen shot, please. Just type in the information shown in Retrospect's Configure->Devices->Device Info. - Is the DVD drive the internal ATA drive in the Retrospect machine? (note that your picture shows it as a MDD DP, but your text description refers to it as a Digital Audio) > even Woz saw no need to kill 9 Be careful how high a pedestal you put your heroes on. Woz has a lot of money, but not all his pronouncements are wise. > OS 9 (and prior) served us well, and if it had had another 8 years of development > (instead of "Pink" and that other vapor OS-ware Apple was working on) who knows > what it could have been. OS 9 ("Blue") would never have had protected memory. Never. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhwalker Posted December 7, 2006 Report Share Posted December 7, 2006 See also these two Retrospect Knowledgebase articles discussing Airport issues and clients on WiFi: Does Retrospect work with WLAN, WiFi, 802.11b, Airport, or Wireless LANs? and Mac Client client turned off when connected via wireless Airport Both of these are problems that are outside Retrospect's control. Contrary to what the first article says, there are ways (e.g., one-to-one NAT with appropriate firewall and routing rules) to make Retrospect work behind NAT if the router provides sufficient configuration control, but Apple tries to hide such controls from Airport users. Once you get past these issues, and are able to see the client on your wired LAN, try putting it back on the WiFi segment and trying the steps here to see if the Airport will pass broadcast packets, etc., to the WiFi LAN: Add Client on different subnet Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffNY Posted December 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2006 Sorry for slow reply. That cold and stomach bug had me putting a few things on the back burner... > the PB was able to be backed up as a Client when Retrospect ran on a OS 9 machine >>Was _nothing_ else changed since then? Was the network topology exactly the same as it is today?<< I just upgraded the client from 4.3 to 5.1 to work with 6.1. Prior to that I could backup to the Beige G3 with Retrospect 4.3. >>The device issues need some additional information. Have you posted the specs for the Pioneer drive? Not a screen shot, please. Just type in the information shown in Retrospect's Configure->Devices->Device Info.<< http://home.earthlink.net/~jeffny61/Retro.ATA.tif http://home.earthlink.net/~jeffny61/Retro.DeviceInfo.tif I did discover if I don't use the drive for a while that if I go in and press "Rescan" the DVD disk will usually show up. I had just backed up a machine on the network prior (20 minuets) to getting this screen shot. But this time Rescan would not see the DVD disk in the drive. >>Be careful how high a pedestal you put your heroes on. Woz has a lot of money, but not all his pronouncements are wise.<< Agreed. But I would not classify him as a hero. It's funny, I am not sure where to place Woz. I admire the guy, but he really hasn't been part of Apple in what, 20 years? And I don't think he had much to do with the Mac (correct me if I am wrong, please). Yet, we would not be here chatting if not for what he did 30 years ago. hummm? I did just finally drag the PowerBook down to the office and connect it directly to the Asante switch and backed it up. Then upgraded the OS X partition on the PowerBook from 10.1 to 10.4.8. Now, whether the 6.1 Client will work with 6.1 over the AirPort remains to be seen. It may take me a few days to find out, I copied most all my files on the PB to my DP G4 and have to go through them and delete them off the PB - after I make sure they copied Ok (the PB will become just web browser and computer to travel with). The DP G4 is now becoming my main machine. Today I also did something I been wanting to do for a while....get a backup set in a safe deposit box! Now that i am working from home ALL my files (business, financial, pictures, music...) are in one location. So an off site backup is critical. By the way, CD/DVD disks in a zip lock back JUST fit in a 3"x5" (x21" deep) safe deposit box....the 5" width is outside +. A DVD that is about 4 11/16" wide barely fits in the 5" wide box. Russ, I will check out the links above... Thanks, Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CallMeDave Posted December 15, 2006 Report Share Posted December 15, 2006 - What sort of optical media you are using; -R, +R, -R DL, +R DL, etc ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffNY Posted December 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2006 From the label on the 50 pack: Taiyo Yuden Media DVD-R/Taiyo 16X SIL INK 50 PK Model [DVD-R47SPYSB16] ITEM # 17-172-114 DVD-R/16X/SP/08 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CallMeDave Posted December 15, 2006 Report Share Posted December 15, 2006 From the Dantz Device Database entry for your drive: "CD-R, CD-RW, and DVD-R DL media is not supported for use with Retrospect" Kinda a good example of why it's most helpful to provide complete hardware information early in the first post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffNY Posted December 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2006 What am I missing? "2) Only DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R, DVD+RW, DVD+R DL media is supported with this drive and Retrospect. CD-R, CD-RW, and DVD-R DL media is not supported for use with Retrospect." It says DVD-R is supported with this drive. "DL" stands for Dual Layer, correct? My DVD are not Dual Layer, they are 4.7GB disks, which should be supported. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffNY Posted December 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2006 Now Retrospect 6.1 doesn't see clients on the (hard wired) network unless I go into Configure and Network.....but even then it not seeing clients on the network. This morning I went to backup a G4 Client running 10.4.8 and Retrospect refuses to see it no matter what I do....and this is a client that was previously added and backed up: http://home.earthlink.net/~jeffny61/Retro.NetworkFind1.tif http://home.earthlink.net/~jeffny61/Retro.NetworkFind2.tif http://home.earthlink.net/~jeffny61/Retro.NetworkFind3.tif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhwalker Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 Quote: Now Retrospect 6.1 doesn't see clients on the (hard wired) network unless I go into Configure and Network.....but even then it not seeing clients on the network. This morning I went to backup a G4 Client running 10.4.8 and Retrospect refuses to see it no matter what I do....and this is a client that was previously added and backed up: Were they added by name or by IP? See my post of December 7: Quote: If you cannot get the Airport to also pass the Retrospect broadcast packets, by which Retrospect learns the IPs of its clients, then you will have to add the Pismo client by IP even if you get the Airport to pass port 497 packets. If you add the Pismo client by IP, then if the Pismo gets its IP from a dynamic DHCP pool (rather than a static-mapped DHCP pool that is mapped by MAC address), the IP will change and you will not be pleased with having to forget and re-add the client when you back up. If the IPs are changing and you added them by IP, you will have to forget and re-add each time. Same remarks if you've got a firewall on. Your issues are network issues, not Retrospect issues, and have been that way from the start. Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffNY Posted December 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 >>Your issues are network issues, not Retrospect issues, and have been that way from the start.<< How about the issue of Retrospect not being able to recognize its own disks in the DVD drive? It that not Retrospects problem either? So Retrospect 6.1 has no way to find a client if the it that units IP address changes? Great! If that's the case lets go back to using AppleTalk........PLEASE!!!!!!! I am so tired of dealing with these daily problems using RETROSPECT. So Retrospect does not know how to use any of Apples Bonjor technologies? THAT is why Apple invented it. To fill a gapping hole in the easy of use of TCP/IP and IP addresses. http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/bonjour/ Its's time EMC stepped up and addresses the major problems with Retrospect 6.1. Personally, I am so tired of dealing with this I can't wait for Time Machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffNY Posted December 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 http://images.apple.com/macosx/pdf/MacOSX_Bonjour_TB.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffNY Posted December 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 http://developer.apple.com/networking/bonjour/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CallMeDave Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 Quote: So Retrospect 6.1 has no way to find a client if the it that units IP address changes Are you kidding? Are you trolling? Of _course_ Retrospect can find a client if that "unit's" IP address changes. Unless, of course, you have instructed Retrospect to look only at a particular address. Russ wrote (very helpfully, I might again add) "If the IPs are changing and you added them by IP...". This statement has specific meaning, which he offered up in the absence of a description from you about how exactly you configured the program to look for clients. >So Retrospect does not know how to use any of Apples Bonjor technologies? No. And you don't have to give us a lesson about Bonjour; all of the posters and most all of the readers of this Forum are well acquainted with the technology. You realize, I suppose, that Bonjour works only on a single subnet? So networks that route packets between or among multiple subnets would be unable to use Bonjour discovered clients. Retrospect was using broadcast IP discovery long before Apple released Rendezvous, and its method continues to work well today. If you add a client via Retrospect's UDP based discovery the client will be found even if its IP address is changed. > Personally, I am so tired of dealing with this I can't wait for Time Machine. TimeMachine won't back up client across a network; it's a personal solution for an individual machine. It looks sweet, but it won't do what a dedicated network backup program does. As for your optical media issue, it could be user error, it could be a configuration problem, it could be a failing of the program. But the way the thread has been split between two different issues it's just too cumbersome to track. Retrospect communicates better with some optical drives then with other; these units have become commodity items that lack real quality nowadays. Perhaps if you started at the beginning, in a new thread, providing a complete description at the onset, including the steps you took and the results you saw at each point along the way, a solution might be forthcoming from the Forum lurkers. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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