Retro 6.1 fails to backup from G5 Dual 2.0 to external 8x d2 LaCie FireWire DVD drive?

[ProfN]

Can anyone figure out why a G5 Dual 2.0 running OS 10.4.2 and Retro 6.1 cannot backup to an external 8x d2 DVD±RW Double Layer LaCie FireWire drive? I can backup to that drive from my G4 QuickSilver running the same OS and Retro versions, but not from the G5. I've tried both Verbatim DVD-R and Verbatim DVD+R media and only succeeded in creating lots of coasters.

 

 

 

Toast 7.0.1 works like a charm when burning from the G5 Dual 2.0 to the LaCie DVD drive, But Retro 6.1, as 6.0.126 before it, fails to backup to the drive from the G5. Retro can identify the drive, just not backup to it. My G5 Finder shows backup sets made by the G4 in that drive, but Retro is blind to such backup set DVDs and fails to create new backup sets.

 

 

 

I've trashed Retro preferences and run Disk Utility's Repair Permissions, DiskWarrior 3.0.3, TechTool Pro 4.0.6 and Tiger Cache Cleaner 3.0.3. I even did an erase-and-clean install of the OS without importing any preferences or settings. Nothing helped.

 

 

 

The LaCie drive is using the latest firmware version--2.07 and the driver is NEC DVD DL (5.1.0).

 

 

 

Your counsel, please?

 

 

 

Respectfully, Norm

[natew]

Hi

 

What exactly happens when you try to backup? If there are any error messages please share...

 

Thanks

Nate

[ProfN]

Retrospect scans what is to be backed up and then hangs with a non-stop spinning beachball. If you click on the Retro icon in the dock, the application hides in the background unless you get rid of other applications in the foreground. Activity Monitor shows "Retrospect Not Responding."

 

 

 

Nothing happens until I force quit the application.

 

 

 

If I insert a DVD to which I successfully backed up when the LaCie was connected to the G4 QuickSilver, the DVD is visible on the G5. When I try to add to the backup from the nearly identical volume of the same name on the G5, Retro does scan the volume I wish to backup and shows the number of files to be backed up and then hangs forever with the DVD now invisible until I force quit. It is unable to scan what's on the DVD. Similarly, it cannot restore.

 

 

 

There are no error statements.

 

 

 

Frustrating.

 

 

 

Respectfully, Norm

[natew]

Hi

 

Disconnect all other firewire devices and try to run the backup. Also make sure you are plugged directly into the firewire port and not a hub.

 

Make sure the DVD drive is empty when you start the backup.

 

Do the problems continue?

 

Thanks

Nate

[ProfN]

1. All firewire devices, even the cable to my APC UPS, were disconnected. No easy chore even if I were younger.

 

2. The DVD drive was empty until Retrospect prompted.

 

3. An attempt to restore a file from a Verbatim DVD-R backup set created when the LaCie was connected to the G4 QuickSilver hung the G5 Dual 2.0 until I force quit out of Retrospect.

 

4. This was followed by a shutdown and startup. Repair Permissions found no problems. This time, I created a new backup set and on Retrospect's prompt, I inserted a blank Verbatim DVD+R.

 

5. Once again, Retrospect hung forever. This time, however, when I force-quit Retrospect, my brand new G5 Dual 2.0 had a kernel attack.

 

 

 

Respectfully, Norm

[natew]

Hi

 

Thanks for checking those things. Have you tried a different firewire port as well?

 

Can you list the device details as shown in configure->devices->device status?

 

When you installed Retrospect 6.1 did you choose a custom instal or easy install?

 

Try this:

Run the Retrospect setup program and choose uninstall. Reboot the machine and make sure the Retrospect file system plugin was removed. If it is still there, delete it and reboot again. Details are here:

http://kb.dantz.com/article.asp?article=5320&p=2

 

Then install 6.1 again choosing a custom install. Make sure to not install the filesystem plugin. Then try a backup again.

 

Thanks

Nate

[ProfN]

Thanks for continuing to follow through, Nate.

 

Quote:

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Have you tried a different firewire port as well?

 

---

 

No. I have used the single 400 FW port on the front of the G5. The G5 Dual 200 has two other FW ports, 800 FW port and a 400 FW port on the back that is used for the 23" Apple Cinema Display.

 

 

 

Quote:

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Can you list the device details as shown in configure->devices->device status?

 

---

 

ID: FireWire _A Vendor: _NEC Product: DVD_RW ND-2510A Version: 2.07 Driver: NEC DVD DL (5.10)

 

 

 

Quote:

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When you installed Retrospect 6.1 did you choose a custom instal or easy install?

 

---

 

Custom, but I did install the filesystem plugin.

 

 

 

I just uninstalled Retrospect. I will report back after restarting and doing the custom installation without the plugin.

 

 

 

Respectfully, Norm

[ProfN]

Retrospect hung for eight minutes before I executed a force-quit.

 

 

 

Nate, before today when I un-installed Retrospect because of the failures to backup to a DVD, I had it kill all my preferences. This time when I un-installed, I opted to keep my preferences because I had created a number of scripts for backing up my several volumes to another internal SATA hard drive and for cloning them in stages to external FW hard drives. I did have Retrospect "forget" previous configurations of DVD backup sets. I did not use a script in the latest failed attempt to backup to a DVD.

 

 

 

I dislike creating coasters and wasting the money on DVDs on each of the many tests I've run so far with the G5. I'm also not exactly excited about the waste of something else that's far more valuable: time. To give the custom re-install without plugin a fair chance, do I now need to un-install again and opt to kill all my preferences (including, of course, all my scripts)?

 

 

 

Respectfully, Norm

[Tramper]

Bit of a long shot: have you tried disabling Spotlight before trying the backup?

[CallMeDave]

Quote:

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do I now need to un-install again and opt to kill all my preferences (including, of course, all my scripts)?

 

---

 

You never need to destroy your preference file when testing with Retrospect. All you need to do is move or rename it, and then proceed with testing using fresh preferences. If the problem persists, and you can safely rule out the preference file as being the cause, you can return your preference file once you figure out what _is_ causing the problem.

 

In this case, it certainly sounds like a hardware problem between the G5 and the drive. Considering that the drive works on another Mac, it's reasonable to focus your tests on the new computer.

 

Since the machine does have other FW ports, I'd suggest leaving everything as it is and test with them. Perhaps swap the display connection with the external drive connection for a test.

 

As for the price of the coasters you're burning, DVD-R media can be had for $.20 or less in quantities of 100.

You would have to burn through a lot to start to get really concerned about the waste.

[ProfN]

Quote:

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You would have to burn through a lot [of DVDs] to start to get really concerned about the waste.

 

---

Did I mention that I'm using Verbatim DVD-R media? But forget the cost of the wasted DVDs: I'm concerned, very concerned about the waste of valuable time.

 

Quote:

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In this case, it certainly sounds like a hardware problem between the G5 and the drive.

 

---

Toast 7.0.1 works perfectly with the same type of DVD media when the LaCie/NEC drive is connected to the same FW port on the G5 Dual 2.0. That rules out a hardware problem between the G5 and the drive.

[natew]

Hi ProfN,

 

Sorry I didn't mention that. As Dave said you can keep your preferences.

Any chance you could try DVD-RW media until we get this sorted out? It will save you some money at least.

 

Were you able to try the backup without the plugin installed?

 

Thanks

Nate

[ProfN]

Thanks for joining in again, Nate.

 

 

 

1. Following the last un-install, re-start and fresh, custom installation of Retro 6.1, I verified with Terminal that the plugin was, indeed, gone.

 

 

 

2. All Retro and Dantz preferences tonight were moved from /Library and from /Users/~/Library to the desktop. Spotlight was killed. The G5 was re-started. It made no difference. Retrospect still hung for 12 minutes before I decided to force-quit.

 

 

 

3. Earlier, I tried Safe Boot startups. That did not help. Nor did logging in from a Test Only Account. Nor did an Erase-and-Clean install of the OS with no importing of preferences.

 

 

 

4. If Retrospect 6.1 had come with a driver that supported the Apple factory-built-in Sony DVD drive in G5 Dual 2.0 models, I would not have tried so hard to get it to backup to the external DVD drive. See this thread.

 

 

 

Respectfully, Norm

[natew]

Hi

 

Hopefully we can get that other driver out soon.

 

We appreciate your patience in trying to troubleshoot this.

The next step is to turn on SCSI logging (it works for FW and USB too) and see what the drive and Retrospect are saying to each other. To do this go to the special tab, hold down the option key and click on the preferences button. Under log turn on SCSI logging and try to back up again. Then send me your entire operations log at pacrimsupport@dantz.com

 

The log is located in /Library/Preferences/Retrospect.

 

Thanks

nate

[ProfN]

Thanks very much, Nate, for your followthrough and concern.

 

I just sent to you an email message with the Retro operations log attached.

 

Although I'm frustrated with my attempts to back up with Retro 6.1 to my internal and external G5 Dual 2.0 DVD drives, I am deeply appreciative of the outstanding support I'm receiving on this issue from EMC Dantz.

 

Respectfully, Norm

[natew]

Hello Norm,

 

Thank you for the logs. I have submitted a report of this issue to our engineers for review.

 

Can I ask you to try one other thing please?

I gather from your posts that the FW 400 port on the back of the G5 is plugged into the FW hub built into your monitor. Can you temporarily disconnect the FW plug to the monitor and run a test backup with the drive plugged directly into the port on the back of the computer? Unplugging the FW cable from the monitor and using that cable on the FW drive should be fine.

 

I'm wondering if the FW hub in the monitor isn't causing problems somehow.

 

Thanks

Nate

[ProfN]

As far back as November 18, I just learned in April, EMC Dantz engineering emailed LaCie's software product manager:

 

Quote:

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. . . to report an issue with your d2 version of the NEC ND-2510A.

 

 

 

Using Retrospect on certain dual processor G5 machines, the drive hangs during backup. This was first reported by customers in the field, but was

reproducible at Apple's ADC labs

last week.

 

 

 

This does not happen with all d2 drives as the LaCie version of the Pioneer DVR-108 had no problems.

 

 

 

Retrospect's operations log shows multiple I/O errors being reported when attempting to backup to the ND-2510A.

 

---

 

 

 

It took until Jan 16 before LaCie's product sofware manager responded:

 

 

 

Quote:

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After spending several hours on researching and testing a d2 NEC ND-2510A with Firmware 2.07 on FireWire and USB 2.0 interfaces, I have found the hanging issue to be media related. If the NEC ND-2510A doesn’t support a particular media, the drive can cause IO errors. I noticed the status LED light on the drive will light up briefly and disappears and that’s when Retrospect would hang.

 

 

 

For example; . . . Using 6x Verbatim DVD-RW media hangs, but older 1x DVD-RW media able to erase, backup and restore OK.

 

---

 

 

 

So the bottom line is that current state of the art with EMC's Retrospect 6.1.126 and the LaCie drive that I purchased brand new July 26, 2004, only allows for extremely slow backup on 1x DVD media.

 

 

 

On April 6 of this year, the LaCie Product Software Manager, (name deleted by moderator) informed me:

Quote:

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I will ask EMC Dantz to de-list support (from their website) for the d2 DVD±RW DL drive base of the NEC ND-2510A drive.

 

---

 

 

 

On April 13, I got this response when I suggested to LaCie that a new driver was needed:

Quote:

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After further discussion with

(name deleted by moderator)

at EMC Dantz, the issue with the LaCie with ND-2510A only occurs with the Apple Power Mac G5 Dual processors systems and not on other Apple systems. There is something inherit with these G5 Dual processors that cause this issue to arise with Dantz software. . . .

 

 

 

And

no, we do not write drivers to make our drives with Dantz software, so there will not be any updated drivers from LaCie to get the drive to work with Dantz software.

As I have said before, we do our best to have our drives supported with a number of 3rd party vendors, but it is no guarantee that our drives will work 100% with 3rd party software.

 

---

 

 

 

Well, on that cheerful note, is it time to give up or is it within the realm of feasiblity that EMC Dantz can fix the problem with an RDU?

 

 

 

Respectfully,

 

 

 

Norm

[natew]

Hi Norm,

 

Please do not post peoples names in the forum.

 

Unfortunately I can't offer anything to make this better for you. Although I would like to explain a couple of things based on the information in your post.

 

1) It appears EMC put a good deal of time and resources into investigating this issue. We even tested the device at Apple. We invested a lot in this. If we could fix it in a driver update we certainly would.

 

2) It also looks like EMC's engineers took a detailed look at logging and device information and determined that there was a problem on the hardware side.

 

3) EMC contacted the hardware manufacturer about this issue. That means the engineers were very sure that the problem was not due to Retrospect.

 

I'd like to emphasize that contacting a hardware manufacturer about possible bugs is serious business. They won't give you the time of day if you haven't completely ruled out software problems.

 

From the emails you have posted it seems clear that the hardware manufacturer has chosen view this problem as a "known incompatibility" and have asked that EMC discontinue support for the device. I'm afraid that leaves us and you most of all without any recourse but to use slower media when backing up on the dual G5.

 

Respectfully,

 

Nate

[CallMeDave]

Quote:

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So the bottom line is that current state of the art with EMC's Retrospect 6.1.126 and the LaCie drive that I purchased brand new July 26, 2004, only allows for extremely slow backup on 1x DVD media.

 

---

 

Although you truncated the quote, the example as written does not suggest that _only_ slower media would work. It seems to suggest that one particular 1x media worked and one particular 6x failed.

 

>If the NEC ND-2510A doesn’t support a particular media, the drive can cause IO errors.

 

Since this comes direct from the hardware manufacturer, I'd suggest that you try other high quality media, especially Taiyo Yuden. Heck, send me a snail mail address (off line, please!) and I'll send you a single 4x DVD-R; I just bought 300 of them (free shipping!) for my 4x iMac G5 drive (which only burns 2x for other brands).

 

If you have success with the 4x, then their 8x might work, too.

 

Dave

[ProfN]

Thanks very much, Nate. I'm deeply appreciative of the excellent support of EMC Dantz on this issue and generally. It's the kind of support that helps consumers remain loyal to a company and to recommend its products to others. (I don't think I could say the same about the manufacturer of the DVD drive.)

 

Respectfully, Norm

[ProfN]

Dave, thank you very much for your kindness. I would email you and take advantage of your offer of a single disc that I could test with my Dual G5 2.0 setup and the LaCie-unsupported external DVD drive. If I had your address, I also would ask about where you got your 300-disc shipment.

 

Respectfully, Norm

[hermie]

The title of this thread also sorta applies to yours truly.

 

I mean, LaCie is quite a big vendor with Mac people. But if one wants to buy a new DL DVD drive there and one wants to be sure in advance that the apparatus is going to work with Retrospect, one has a problem:

 

the EMC/Dantz database only lists the LaCie's with NEC mechanisms and not the new LaCie 16x DL Lightscribes with Samsungs inside. LaCie customer support says they don't know if the new drives will work, because they don't get informed by EMC about qualification anymore and asking EMC/Dantz about it seems sheer impossible. Leaving the customer somewhat hesitant to buy the new drive, to say the least.

 

Yes, LaCie being a big player (I think) on the Mac side I suppose that support for the new loot on LaCie's tree will come eventually. But as long as the customer can't find a definitive answer to this, he/she can't really buy the new drive.

 

For in case it won't work in my example I would be stuck with two drives and no backup on DVD, my internal LaCie NEC 3520 being a no-go plus the external FW/USB2 LaCie. Is there really nobody at EMC Support or Development who reads this forum and can tell if the new LaCie's are going to be supported? Through a RDU or whatnot, perhaps?

 

I would really finally get to backup to DVD once more and LaCie is just about one of the very few drive manufacturers that has an online shop and is active in my part of the world. Hence my preference for buying there. Hope you guys understand and thank you for getting this far...

[CallMeDave]

Norm, you should be able to send me a PM (Private Message) directly from the board; click on my screen name link and follow that to the Send Private Message link (along the bottom area of the Profile page).

 

Dave

[CallMeDave]

Quote:

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Is there really nobody at EMC Support or Development who reads this forum and can tell if the new LaCie's are going to be supported?

 

---

 

There is no way for _anybody_ to know in advance the results in any qualification process, since all the testing has to be completed before the results are known, even to the tester.

 

So EMCInsignia can't say if a drive will work or not until they finish testing it. And when they finish, they'll (hopefully) update their database to reflect their results.

 

EMCInsignia has a history of testing most all of the hardware devices from the major manufacturers, so it's reasonable to assume that they will eventually have results. But it's unresonable to expect those results to come on your schedule instead of on theirs.

 

>LaCie customer support says they don't know if the new drives will work, because they don't get

>informed by EMC about qualification anymore and asking EMC/Dantz about it seems sheer impossible.

 

As Nate suggested in this thread, communication between device manufacturers and the software engineers who write programs for those devices does occur, but apparently it's not as open as it might be. Still, the results of qualification testing is posted on the EMCInsignia website where anybody in the world can easily find them. And the idea that no one at LeCie has the contact information for the hardware testing department at EMCInsignia is laughable. At MacWorld Expo in San Francisco this year, the EMC booth was just about three rows away from the LaCie booth; its unlikely that they ignored each other entirely for four days.

[hermie]

Hi Dave,

 

Loud and clear, thank you very much!

 

I guess the LaCie helpdesk guy just didn't want to dig a bit deeper and go up a bit higher...

 

However, I do think that Dantz or EMC tests a lot more drives on the PC side than for Mac. Example: my NEC 3520AW, which seems to be qualified on PC but not tested on Mac. Retrospect gives it the NEC DL driver, but I think its mechanism is a little bit different from the 3540, which I think is why it doesn't work. But then, that doesn't explain why nothing happens at all on custom config and Retrospect stops responding.

 

So, to be as sure as possible, it is not so that EMC won't test the new LaCie's just because there's now a Samsung inside?

 

I'm no expert, far from it, but for the price I think it's a fine drive and LaCie will probably sell it well. DL, Lightscribe and all that. Another plus for me is that it has both a FireWire and an USB2 connection, so I think I could use it through FireWire on my Dual G4 now (although I do have an USB2 card installed) and USB on my next Mac in case Apple decides to drop FireWire.

 

Thanks again and I think I'll just take the plunge and buy the LaCie...