MacOS 9.1, ASIP 6.3.3, Retrospect 5.0

[WPBRodder]

I am backing up a small network (10 machines) using Retrospect Workgroup Server running on a Macintosh G3 400 (Blue and White) operating on MacOS 9.1. Also running on the same machine are Appleshare IP server 6.3.3, and CE Software's QuickMail Pro Office Mailserver 3.0. This machine is our office fileserver, my firm's web server, ftp server and mail server. It is also running WebSonar acgi, which permits access to a document database over the Internet.

 

 

 

I had been running Retrospect 4 successfully from a different machine on my network for years. Since I have been trying to migrate all of the desktops and laptops accessing the server to MacOS X, I decided I needed to upgrade to Retrospect 5.0. The Dantz website indicated that the minimum product that would serve my purposes was "WorkGroup Server" which could run on the fileserver, backup the fileserver local volumes and also backup clients over the network. After following the instructions for moving my Retrospect installation to the fileserver, I had terrible problems the first few nights due to a problem that was promptly cured by downloading an update. Since the update had been posted by Dantz weeks before I purchased the upgrade, I was a bit peeved that it hadn't been incorporated into the copy that I downloaded, but that peeve has passed.

 

 

 

The problem now is that the fileserver AND THE MAIL SERVER both freeze when Retrospect runs trying to back up the fileserver local volumes. I have tried setting Retrospect to stay "in Retrospect" after a session, instead of quitting and then restarting when the next script is supposed to run, but that has not made a difference. I can start up and quit from Retrospect from the Finder unlimited times without event. I have also noticed that a script that backs up client machines is able to run with causing the freeze. However, when the application starts running the script to back up the local ASIP volumes, the freeze appears.

 

 

 

ome posts that I have seen suggest that Dantz believes the problem lies within Appleshare IP, since they have reproduced the freeze by starting other Carbon applications on ASIP 6.3.3/MacOS9.1 machines. This does not explain why QuickMail stops communicating.

 

 

 

I am now experimenting with some remedies posted some time ago, including turning off virtual memory, setting the preferences in Retrospect to not use system heap memory (and increasing the memory allocation of Retrospect to over 60 MB), lowering the maximum memory used by ASIP. Nothing is working so far. Next I intend to try telling Retrospect to restart after completing a script with no additional scripts due to run for 12 hours. This just seems rather extreme.

 

 

 

I hope some of this information proves useful to Dantz in resolving this problem. I frankly consider it abusive to ask that I pay money to try to work through this problem on the telephone when I bought this product because Dantz said it WORKED with my setup.

 

 

 

If anyone else has any ideas, please let me know.

[WPBRodder]

Last night's run was the worst yet. Machine froze when network client script launched. Webserver, Fileserver, Mailserver remained frozen all night. Machine continued to freeze on restarts this morning until I shut down the ASIP servers and the QuickMail server. Retrospect then ran, backed up the network client and the local volumes. Then restarted the servers with Retrospect running. Told Retrospect to "Stay in Retrospect" when script is completed and there is no script scheduled to run during the 12 hour look ahead period; also told Retrospect to do nothing when a script is ready to run (unchecked "launch Retrospect", and "show icon in Apple menu", etc.) Hopefully, the script will run without launching Retrospect because Retrospect will still be running from the previous session. In case of restarts, I have also put the Retrospect application into the Startup File folder (instead of an alias, which apparently can cause problems). I will keep posting my various attempts at this until I find a workaround or Dantz or Apple figures out the problem.

 

 

 

P.S. I have rescheduled all Sherlock indexing to occur only one day a week on this machine well out of range of the running of any of the scripts. I have also turned off the "remember last ten" documents, applications and servers in Apple Menu Options. I had previously tried running Karl Pottie's "Keep It Up" with "Okey Dokey Pro" to deal with the freezes, but this failed since "Keep It Up" only works on application crashes, not system crashes.

[WPBRodder]

THIS WORKS! I am now able to run Retrospect 5.0 on my MacOS 9.1 Blue & White G3 running ASIP 6.3.3, QuickMail Pro Server and WebSonar.acgi. The secret?

 

 

 

Move the Retrospect application to the Startup Items folder inside the System folder (thus, if the machine restarts, Retrospect will automatically start). Start Retrospect (or Restart the machine). In Retrospect click the "Special" tab, and click the "Customize preferences" button. Then, in the "Unattended" dialog, check "Stay in Retrospect" and nothing else. In "Quit Action", uncheck "Check validity of next script". In "Notification", uncheck EVERYTHING.

 

 

 

In addition to the foregoing, (maybe it was total overkill, since it didn't help until I did the things described in the previous paragraph) I also set the maximum memory size in ASIP to leave room for everything that is running, including 60MB for Restrospect, I also reset the memory allocation for Retrospect in the Finder to 60MB. I then option clicked while clicking the "Customize preference" button and set Retrospect to NOT use system heap.

 

 

 

The problem with Retrospect crashing ASIP seems to coincide with Retrospect trying to start itself up. So long as it doesn't have to start itself up, it seems to behave itself.

[bheyman]

I use 9.2.2 and AppleShare 6.3.1. I too would get freezes as soon as Retrospect 5 launches. Try this work around: Disable unneeded Retrospect extensions, Launch Retrospect BEFORE AppleShare and never quit out of Retrospect 5.

[IrenaS]

Hello,

 

 

 

Dantz has been investigating several problems that customers have reported when backing up an AppleShare IP server with Retrospect 5.0. Reported problems include:

 

 

 

1) The ASIP server crashes when Retrospect 5.0 autolaunches or is launched

 

from an alias.

 

 

 

2) The ASIP server crashes at the beginning of a backup with the Retrospect

 

5.0 client.

 

 

 

3) Retrospect returns "error 1 (unknown)" for some files backed up from an

 

ASIP server with the Retrospect 5.0 client.

 

 

 

Our investigation has revealed that these problems result from using Carbon APIs with AppleShare IP software. Problem #1 occurs when any Carbon application is launched from an alias, confirming our contention that it is not a Retrospect issue. Retrospect 5.0 uses HFS+ file system calls, as specified by Apple, which stimulate bugs in the AppleShare IP software,

 

resulting in Problems #2 and #3.

 

 

 

We have reported all of these problems to Apple, but Apple's development efforts are now focused on Mac OS X Server. Without a commitment by Apple to address these problems, we have no choice but to suggest that our customers consider replacing AppleShare IP with Mac OS X Server.

 

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

Dantz Development

 

Technical Support

 

www.dantz.com

[scottmahrer]

So, the question I have is simply this...are the work-arounds mentioned in this thread still working for you? I want to try these ideas, but would rather KNOW if they will work or not!

[pjandcallie]

I tried the work around that Scott posted and it did not work for me. It locked up soon after I left work. The mouse still moved but it was locked up. This is really getting frustrating. Maybe the answer is to go back to 4.3 of Retrospect. That worked every night. Any other suggestions?

[adamp]

I also had the same problem. I am running a much more simple setup though. I just have ASIP with file sharing. Thats it. Every night retrospect would crash when it tried to launch the application. I did basically what was posted here. I checked to stay in retrospect and turned off the notifications. This worked. My back up ran as scheduled last night. The first time it hasn't crashed in two weeks.

[scottmahrer]

I have tried the work-around posted within this thread, but Retrospect still quits (with error 2) when trying to write to any backup set. VERY FRUSTRATED!!. Worse, when switching back to 4.3, I now get the same problem!!! Worse still - I can't seem to get anyone from Tech Support to understand that I've been using Retro with ASIP 6.3 for over 2 YEARS with NO problem!!! The only response they're willing to give is to copy the post you see everywhere here that it's not compatible! The only solution that has worked for me at all is to shut down the ASIP software, then manually run my scripts for backup (while leaving my Server inaccessible to my workstations). Then I simply restart ASIP...no rebooting, etc. The unanswered question still stands - - why the problem (all of a sudden) with 4.3 ONLY AFTER attempting to use 5.0??? I can't view this as Apple's fault at all! Something happened to my G4 during the 5.0 install that leaves EITHER version quitting instead of writing!!! While I hope to migrate to OS X Server sometime soon, it isn't going to be tomorrow!! To add insult, there is no Tech Support (via phone) included when purchasing the upgrade to 5.0...WHICH SUCKS, to put it technically!!

 

Scott

[ChuckS]

Retrospect 5.0 does require and install CarbonLib 1.5, which isn't fully compatible with ASIP. That might be a reason that downgrading to 4.3 produces the same problem.

[scottmahrer]

Thanks for the tip, Chuck! I will look into CarbonLib.

 

 

 

I had a feeling all along that something within the install process for 5.0 had caused my problem. Hope this works!!!!!!

 

Scott

[scottmahrer]

Well...it did not affect things to trash CarbonLib from my server & restart. Version 4.3 STILL quits with an error 2 when attempting to write to any backup set!

 

It's been suggested to go through the pain-in-the-ass process of reinstalling OS 9.2.2 and/or ASIP. At this point, I'm avoiding THOSE options as too extreme. I still don't believe that either of these is at fault here, as 4.3 has worked PERFECTLY since installed using OS 9.2.2 & ASIP6.3.3.

 

 

 

I am astounded at the lack of a definitive answer from Dantz!

[AmyJ]

You have another thread, which you started, where answers are also being posted for this same issue:

 

 

 

dantz1.conxion.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Macdesktop&Number=11402&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1

 

 

 

We understand your frustration. Many customer were experiencing these same issues with 4.3 - it is not new to Retrospect 5.0. Retrospect 4.3 uses the same file system calls that conflict with ASIP. Many 4.3 customers did not experience these issues, and many 5.0 customers do not experience these issues today. Apple is focusing on OS X, and is not commited to fixing issues with a program that they no longer support.

[scottmahrer]

Amy,

 

Again, Thanks for the reply...but I'm still NOT getting the answers from DANTZ that can be provided. IT'S NOT APPLE'S FAULT THAT THE INSTALL OF 5.0 ON MY SYSTEM HAS CHANGED SOMETHING THAT NOW CAUSES A NEW PROBLEM WITH 4.3!!! I cannot accept your response! I think that Dantz should be able to tell me exactly what YOUR installer changed within my system that CAUSED my NEW problem with 4.3!! To tell me that others have experienced problems in the past does not help. WE did not have past problems...ONLY after attempting to use 5.0 did problems with 4.3 crop up!!!! I HAVE to place blame with Dantz here, not Apple. Sure, it would be nice if they looked into the problem more! I have even looked into their knowledge base for help, and did try to adjust the way Retrospect uses memory via the "secret preferences" with no luck. I'm very frustrated that my ONLY means of tech support is via this method. I would have had better answers long ago being able to TALK to someone!!!! I can't accept that my company would have to pay $$ for support on a product that NEVER installed & worked correctly!!!

 

Again, to capsulate...I'm STILL looking for the answer from DANTZ as to what the installer for 5.0 did to my system that has now caused 4.3 to quit when attempting to write to a backup set!

 

Scott

[AmyJ]

Retrospect 5.0 installs the Retrospect application folder, the Retrospect preferences folder and the extensions listed in your other thread. A list of extensions can be found in the Retrospect installer Extensions folder. This is it. There are _no_ other changes made to your OS 9 system. If you have completely removed these folders and extensions then you have completely removed Retrospect 5.0 from your system.

[Mayoff]

Hello,

 

 

 

For months prior to the release of Retrospect 5.0 Dantz was investigating problems with 4.3 and AppleShare.

 

 

 

The problems Dantz has reported to Apple are not isolated to Retrospect 5.0, they exist with 4.3 also.

 

 

 

When 4.3 was released, Dantz began using more HFS+ API's provided by Apple. AppleShare does not appears to be compatible with those API's. When 5.0 was released, Dantz was required to use even more of the HFS+ API's in order to support Mac OS X and for Carbon Support.

 

 

 

We reported these issues to Apple, but as Steve Jobs has made clear, Mac OS 9 is "dead" and they have no current plans to update AppleShare for better HFS+ compatibility.

 

 

 

At this time Dantz recommends the use of Mac OS X server over AppleShare.

[sPearWay]

Hello,

 

 

 

I understand that ASIP will not be fixed.

 

What is the last version of the retrospect client that works on ASIP 6.3.3?

 

Does that version works with the Retrospect 5.0 application?

 

I just would like to be able to backup an ASIP 6.3.3 machine from by backup machine. I have tried to downgrade the ASIP client to 4.3 but the machine still crashes each time I do a backup.

 

 

 

Thanks

 

 

 

Pierre

[AmyJ]

This issue was seen with Retrospect 4.3 and Retrospect 5.0 in conjunction with ASIP 6.3.x. There are no older versions of the client software available.

[Gater]

Let me throw a quick note into the frey. I've never gotten Retrospect anywhere near one of my machines running AppleShare. Retrospect has always been installed on a separate machine on the network. From that machine - it does all of it's backup work. Servers and workstations alike.

 

 

 

Back in the days of ASIP 3.x or 4.x we ran into problems with having Retrospect on the Server machine itself. While we continue to use Retrospect, it has never seen the insides of an ASIP machine since. This has worked very well for us.

 

 

 

One sour grapes comment if I may - Apple has slammed the door on many a school (like the one I work with) moving beyond OS/9 and ASIP 6.x. The cost of moving to OS X Server or one of the Xserve boxes and the related software and hardware base to work with these is completely out of reach. In a good year the school gets a tech budget of $3,000. All of the cabling and many of the machines were donations and many machines just "good deals" on older Power Mac hardware. But supporting OS/X is out of the question financially. The bean counters are already asking why we're not buying new 1.3ghz Windows boxes for under $300 from a local builder and getting away from Apple's "over pricing". Mr Jobs needs to realize that just as there are consumer and professional levels of the hardware, there also needs to be a different level of software and hardware available to have any chance of keeping any more schools (K-12) in the Apple camp.

 

 

 

A bit more than a comment, but it gripes me when the quick answer is just dump what you've got and buy new. That used to be what was "required" to stay up with the Windows world while Apple equipment lasted forever and needed 1/10th the support. That's changing 180 degrees and he's a major factor.

[dstranathan]

I too must say that all your problems will be fixed if you just MOVE the Retro app off the server to a dedicated Mac elsewhere on your LAN. Here's the facts:

 

 

 

1) ASIP isn't very stable (I have used it for 5 years in a production environment, trust me)

 

2) OS 9 is pretty shakey, too (Duh)

 

 

 

Therefore: Do yourself a favor and put the Retro 5 app on a seperate Mac and then backup your ASIP servers a CLIENTS rather than doing it locally! It will solve all your problems!

 

 

 

I used to run Retro 4.3 on the *same* box as ASIP 6.x and it sucked. I learned quickly to NEVER run apps (of any kind) on a server. A server is a server not a workstation! Trust me. (OS X Server, and UNIX in general are better regarding stability, but it is still a bad idea to use a server for other things besides serving, I mean, come on! Really...)

 

 

 

Now that I have the Retro app (4.3 and 5.0 now) on seperate, *dedicated* Macs, it's prefect. I backup 2 ASIP 6.3.2 (OS 9.1) servers and a FileMaker Pro 3 (OS 9.1) server every night with NO problems.

 

 

 

I am getting ready to replace all my ASIP servers with XServes (OS X) soon. I suggest you do too! OS 9: R.I.P!

[pmonether]

Tom,

 

I'm curious to compare notes - tried something which I think is very similar to your solution and it seems to be working well. Wondering if you're still happy with your solution or have found any downsides. Please feel free to email me directly at pmonether@conval.edu or reply to this post. Very grateful for your workaround idea.

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

Peter