Groom=1, 30-40 GB free, always runs out of space!

[XOR42]

Pulling my hair trying to get Retro v7.x to work. Always runs our of space when there is a lot of space available whilst backing up my workstation. Called support several times. Spend 100+ hours. Have latest Retrospect Pro (v7.x) and Maxtor One Touch 250GB USB2 BU drive formatted as NTFS (actually it works out to 233 GB usable).

 

Have 2 backup sets for my larger workstation and a smaller family PC. Workstation backup set is set for Groom=1 and 200 GB limit. Famly PC backup set is set for Groom=1, limit=30 GB. With a 233 GB drive, that leaves 3 GB extra to ensure both fit.

 

Workstation actually only has about 172 GB of used disk with a great many exclusions for caches, temps, unwanted folders, etc. Remaining size to back up is probably 160 GB or less, which should leave about 40+ GB free on target backup set.

 

Always the same scenario. Retro runs for many days or weeks, workstation backup set grows and grows, eventually reaches 200 GB limit then pops request for 2nd media or to initiate a groom. It never grooms on its own as it should. When I do manually respond to initiate a groom, it takes hours, then fails with a cryptic error (sorry, lost sticky note)suggesting not enough space.

 

I've re-cataloged, re-groomed, completely deleted all backups and restarted, and every other combination. Always the same. It eventually runs out of space, doesn't groom all the way, and pops the out of space dialog.

 

As far as I see, grooming either does NOT work and Retro isn't meant for single drives or perhaps Respect needs 40%, 50% or 100% more space on backup drive than backup actually needs???

 

Any thoughts! Support calls always end up the same way. No answer. Try everything. End up clearing everything and restarting from scaratch. This is not how I expected an automated backup to work and I don't like LOSING my backup and a whole day in backup time each time I start over again.

 

It also seems that sometimes one of the many snapshots that accumulate gets "locked" without me every having locked it. I don't even know what locking accomplishes, when and why one would do it, and how Retrospect does it on its own. When that last happened, I also tried unlocking the snapshot then re-groom but to no avail. Same thing. Failure. Space. Restarted from scratch all over again.

 

Although Retro did allow me to restore a couple of lost files once, I paid to upgrade to Pro to have a full automated, open-file, system backup to would also do my other PC. There are countless free alternatives that will simply save documents.

 

Any thoughts out there?

Thanks in advance

[junk97]

When I've gotten requests for a 2nd disk even with grooming turned on, I've found that it is because my next backup is larger than the amount that can be groomed. You may want to change up your groom preferences to keep a smaller number of snapshots.

 

I've had my own issues with grooming as well but I've found that the "Scheduled Grooming" option has alleviated some of these problems for me.

The latest 7.0.326 version has an option to create an automated groom script which I run every other weekend.

I also have my backup set configured to keep 5 snapshots but you'll probably want to set this to your own preference.

 

Grooming definitely has issues that need to be addressed/resolved but scheduling my grooms has made my backup management a bit easier.

[XOR42]

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When I've gotten requests for a 2nd disk even with grooming turned on, I've found that it is because my next backup is larger than the amount that can be groomed. You may want to change up your groom preferences to keep a smaller number of snapshots.

 

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Thanks for replying. Not sure what you mean, though. I have grooming set to "Groom to remove backups older than 1" and the backup drive has 30GB to 40GB more space than the total data I am backing up. It can't set grooming any smaller than that, can I?

 

Could you be suggesting that Retrospect needs the backup drive to have up to a maximum of 200% of source data size? For example, hypothetically, if EVERY file changed, does Restrospect need 100% more space to store the entire changed data BEFORE it deletes the old ones? This might explain why 25% extra space is not enough. Even so, I can't believe 25% of my ALL my computer files changed.

 

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I've had my own issues with grooming as well but I've found that the "Scheduled Grooming" option has alleviated some of these problems for me. The latest 7.0.326 version has an option to create an automated groom script which I run every other weekend.

 

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I went to try another manual groom but I forgot where it is!!! I did find the undocumented Groom Scripting you mentioned. I created the script, chose the back up set, and executed it. However, it immediately failed with an error saying that it can't ask for the password. When creating the script, there was no place I could find to set any password option such as with the Backup scripts. Very confusing.

 

I next manually opened the properties on the Backup Set which requires me to enter the password. I then re-ran the groom script. I then chose Execute Now. It then sat there waiting forever in the exeuction panel. No error. Just waiting. Even without this problem, I don't see how it's going to work in scheduled mode when it doesn't have a password option to open my password-protected back up set. It's not encrypted, just password protected.

 

I then closed all Retrospect activities to get to an empty Retrospect activity window and start the script again. This time it ran but failed with a bizarre error 1101. "File/directory not found." No other information. With 1,000's of folders and a million files, it is ridiculous it doesn't tell you which one? Nor does it tell you what the error means?

 

This is getting extremely frustrating!!!

 

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I also have my backup set configured to keep 5 snapshots but you'll probably want to set this to your own preference.

 

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Ha! I can't execute with just ONE, let alone FIVE!

 

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Grooming definitely has issues that need to be addressed/resolved but scheduling my grooms has made my backup management a bit easier.

 

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Well, I can't say much yet on that since I can't get grooming script to run either!

 

Someting doesn't make sense here.

[XOR42]

Follow up to my earlier message. I've now repeated 3 times, over 4 months, my scenario of running out of space on a backup drive that has 30-40GB more than the system I'm backing up.

 

Here's what I've repeatedly confirmed through 3 test cycles, each of which takes about 5 weeks to complete.

 

System: WXP (latest), 1 GB RAM, 1.7 Ghz P4, 200 GB HD,

Source to backup: 5 NTFS drives with about 160-170 GB of used data.

Target Drive: USB 2.0, Maxtor 1-Touch, 250GB (really is 233GB)

Retrospect Professional v7.0.326 with Update v7.0.9.103.

 

Backup Setup:

Progressive backup, groom set to "keep only 1 set of data"

Source Data: About 160 GB

Target Drive: USB2, Maxtor, 1-Touch, 200 GB free.

Options: Progressive, Verify

Backup Set: 200 GB limit on target drive. Grooming= "Keep only 1"

Schedule: Daily, 2 am

 

Problem:

Runs like until Retrospect says back drive is out of space. Actually, the target had 30-40 GB more than needed for 1 full backup. I never noticed any messages about auto-grooming taking place. The only messages I see are when it runs out of space and asks if I want to add more drives or do a groom. I choose to groom. It ALWAYS fails. Out of space.

 

I then go through the following 3-5 weeks cycle of frustration. Including call support twice. Get same suggestions. Try them. Fails each time. Here's the sequence.

 

Backup builds till out of out of space dialog pops.

 

Choose to groom. Fails. Various errors incl. "Can't find file/directory".

 

Try simple catalog repair. Fails.

 

Retry manual groom using script. Fails.

 

Try a [complete] catalog rebuild.

9 hours later completes with 2 warnings shown as ERRORS.

... 1. Locked preference on snapshots not preserved

... 2. Review snapshots and make change as necessary

... Don't know how/why to lock snapshots. Ignore msg.

... Shows catalog stats as 468,292 files, 311.3 GB ? Huh???

... backup drive is 233 GB, backset limited to 200GB, data=160GB.

 

Retry manual groom using script (failed after 90 mins)

... Logs it groomed 19.5 GB from backup set. Yeah!

... Next log line says it ran out space!!! Argh!!!!!!!!!

... Actual space freed on back drive is more like 10 GB.

... Then logs "Can't compress catalog for backup set. Huh???

... ... I set Catalog to NOT compress

... ... I thought catalog is NOT on back drive?

... ... My WinSys/Program/Temp drive © has 11 GB free.

... Err1: Grooming Backup Set (name) failed, error -1115 (disk full)

... Err2: Can't compress Catalog File for Backup Set (name), error -1 (unknown).

 

Go to bed depressed ;-)

 

Backup then ran as scheduled that night after above actions. Completes without error. Shows backup set has 9 GB available.

 

This cycle repeats. Reread from top 5 times taking 3-5 weeks each time :-)

 

Yes, contacted support. Suggested I zap everything and start from scratch. Did that twice. Same general scenario repeats. I've spent well over 100 hours trying to get this to work now.

 

Anyone have any suggestions?

[natew]

Hi

 

Make sure that Windows system restore is disabled for the external drive and that the recycle bin is empty.

 

How big is the catalog file and where is it stored?

 

If you open the backup set properties, manually delete snapshots and then run the groom what happens?

 

What happens if you set the member properties to use 95% of the available disk space instead of 100%? That may give the grooming operation a bit more breathing room.

 

Thanks

Nate

[XOR42]

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Make sure that Windows system restore is disabled for the external drive and that the recycle bin is empty.

 

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Thank you! I turned off Restore for the back up drive and, for the 1st time, completed a successful groom which shaved 50 Gb as I expected. This resulted in my back up drive usage becoming exactly what I estimated it should be. Finally! After 120+ hours of hell and hair pulling. You'd think Dantz phone support would mention that as their 1st suggestion! Don't think clearing recycle did much. True, there was 400 mb there I was saving but they were all files from C drive which already had 11 GB free.

 

Happy it worked but don't understand why restore would cause an out of space condition when there was so much space free everywhere (on C, on backup, etc.). Though I'm certain it slowed things down.

 

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How big is the catalog file and where is it stored?

 

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It's in the default "\My Documents\Restrospect Catalogs" on C drive taking about 200 MB, uncompressed. There was 11 GB free on C:.

 

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If you open the backup set properties, manually delete snapshots and then run the groom what happens?

 

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I checked the snapshots and there is only 1 per each of the 5 logical drives on my 1 physical drive being backed up. Wouldn't deleting any of those single and only snapshots be deleting my actual backup or at least destroying the architecture of the backup? I'm confused between snapshots, multiple snapshots, sessions, and multiple sessions. If I delete snapshots, how are they recreated? Are they needed? Argh!

 

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What happens if you set the member properties to use 95% of the available disk space instead of 100%? That may give the grooming operation a bit more breathing room.

 

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Actually already set like that. The drive is 233 GB but the backup set is limited to 200 GB with 30 GB for another backup set for my other workstation. That leaves 3 GB for safety.

 

Thank you again for your assistance. I am hoping the groom didn't work as a fluke and was do to your great advice thus far. I won't know for another 4-5 weeks when the drive fills up again.

 

Also, how do you run a manual groom? Is there a more direct way then ceating and running a groom script which I just figure out how to do?

 

Also, re groom scripts, mine fails when I run it with a "can't enter password" error. There was no place to set password in the script. To run the script, I have to first open properties of the back up set, then enter password when prompted, then close properties, then run script. If that is normal, how does one create a scheduled groom script?

 

Is a scheduled groom script needed at all? Does restrospect auto groom? It never seemed to for me. Instead, it runs out of sdpace, then pops the out of space dialog with an option to groom for me to click. That doesn't seem like auto-groom.

 

Thanks again!

[natew]

Hi

 

Creating a groom script is best. Once the script is created you can always run it manually from the "run" menu at the top of the screen.

 

What have you set the password preferences to? Do you have it set to "remember password for scripted access?"

 

A scheduled groom is recommended. Grooming will automatically start when the disk gets full but you never know when that will be.

 

Thanks

Nate

[MrMikeH]

Grooming is very confusing. The only place I could see to even set the option was when I created the Backup Set. All this talk in the users guide about the Option tab in Backup Set properties is confusing because there is nothing on that tab about grooming. It also mentions changing the grooming options, which I haven't been able to figure out how to do. This is definitely an area that needs to be improved in the next release.

[XOR42]

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Creating a groom script is best. Once the script is created you can always run it manually ...

 

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Ok, Did that.

Q: I assume you mean "best" as compared to an auto-groom by the Backup Script since there is no manual groom ... or is there?

 

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Do you have [password preferences] set to "remember password for scripted access?"

 

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Re Backup Sets

Q: I assume you mean the password preference in my Back Up Scripts?

I have two scheduled BU scripts and both are set to "Remember for scripted access". When they run as scheduled, they don't ask for a password. HOWEVER, when using RUN to manually execute those same BU scripts, I am asked for a password.

Q: Is that normal?

 

Re Groom Sciripts

I created a Groom Script to (1) do manual grooms since I cannot find a manual Groom command anywhere and (2) for use in a scheduled fashion (not tried yet). However, when using RUN to manually execute the groom script, I am NOT asked for a password like I am with my manually run BU scripts. Instead, I get a cryptic error similar to "can't accept password here". However, if I manually inspect the properties of the BU set to be groomed thererby forcing a prompt for a password, I can then start the groom script.

Q: Remember Password is a Back Set option, right?

Q: Is it a bug that groom scripts error when 1st accessing pwd BU sets?

Q: Is it a bug that BU scripts don't use stored pwd when run manually?

 

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A scheduled groom is recommended. Grooming will automatically start when the disk gets full but you never know when that will be.

 

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I'll be happy to try that when I can resolve the above issues and questions.

 

Many Thanks

[XOR42]

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Grooming is very confusing. The only place I could see to even set the option was when I created the Backup Set. All this talk in the users guide about the Option tab in Backup Set properties is confusing because there is nothing on that tab about grooming. It also mentions changing the grooming options, which I haven't been able to figure out how to do. This is definitely an area that needs to be improved in the next release.

 

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Glad to know I am not the only one have great difficulty getting the hang of Restrospect!

 

However, I do at least manage to get to the back up set groom options you are referring to. Here's how I get to the Back Set Groom Settings in Retrospect 7.0:

 

1. On left menu, under Configure Section, click Back Up Sets. It then pops a "Back Up Sets" dialog.

 

2. Highlight your back up set then click Properties. If your BU set is password protected and it has not been accessed in your current admin session, you will be asked for a password. It then pops the Back Up Set Properties dialog.

 

3. There should be 5 tabs across the top: /Summary\ /Options\ /Snapshots\ /Sessions\ /Members\. Click on /Options\. About half way down, just below "Media: [Actions]" you should see to 2 check box groom options which appear as follows as per my own settings:

[X] Groom to remove backups older than [ 1]

[ ] Groom to Restrospect defined policy

My installation default was "defined policy" but I don't have enough space since it tries to keep at least 2 generations so I selected the 2nd option with "1" set of data. Also, even though they are check boxes they actually operate as mutually exclusive Radio Buttons - that is, you can't select both.

 

Hope that helps.

[natew]

Hi

 

Quote:

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Re Backup Sets

Q: I assume you mean the password preference in my Back Up Scripts?

I have two scheduled BU scripts and both are set to "Remember for scripted access". When they run as scheduled, they don't ask for a password. HOWEVER, when using RUN to manually execute those same BU scripts, I am asked for a password.

Q: Is that normal?

 

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Yes it is normal and correct.

Any operations launched manually at the console will require authentication. Any operations launched by a scheduled script will not require authentication. "scripted access" refers to backup operations launched by the Retrospect application not by a user.

 

Manual grooming can be started by opening the backup set properties, clicking on the "media action" item and selecting "groom". If this option is not available you are using an encrypted backup set which cannot be groomed.

 

What error do you see when the grooming script runs?

 

Thanks

Nate

[XOR42]

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Re Backup Sets

What error do you see when the grooming script runs?

 

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When I use Run to execute a Groom Script on a Back Up set that has a password and I haven't previously opened or accessed that Backup Set in the current admin session, I get the following error:

 

"Can't access Backup Set (my back up set), error -703 (need user-entered password, but can't ask)"

 

However, if I access the Backup Set specified in the Groom Script for any other reason such as to view the backup set properties, enter the password, close properties, then try to run the Groom Script, again, it then runs ok.

 

This behavior is different than when I run either of my other 2 scripts (both for backups). In those cases, I am prompted for the password if I have not yet accessed the backup sets. I don't get the error noted above.

 

Thanks.

[natew]

Hi

 

Try scheduling the groom to happen 5 minutes in the future. Does the same problem occur?

 

Thanks

Nate

[pcsmith]

I'm having the same kind of issue, but on Win2003, which doesn't have system restore so I can't turn that off... here is the error.. This happens on both scheduled and manual grooms. It just started happening last night.

 

Grooming Backup Set (my backup set) failed, error -1101 (file/directory not found)

[natew]

Hi

 

That would be the catalog that cannot be found. If you go to configure->backup sets and click properties on the backup set what happens? Are the settings tabs all shown properly or do you get a windows file browser window instead?

 

Thanks

nate